(Ed) Hitler's Atheism

[CWL]

Pssst! JK! Hans is Danish, not German. There's a difference, you know.

Anyway, does the questionable acts of various American politicians reflect badly on you? (The answer to that rhetorical question is no.)

[barefaced sarcasm]

JK doesn't know the difference between Denmark and Germany? I thought he knew everything

[/barefaced sarcasm]

 

[thaiboxerken]

lol, appeal to sympathy logical fallacy. This is the best example of that I have seen in some time. Great job, CWL.

JK

This is hardly an appeal to sympathy. If it is a fallacy, then it is ad-hominem fallacy, but it's not. This is simply a statement of opinion based on your character.

 

[thaiboxerken]

[barefaced sarcasm]

JK doesn't know the difference between Denmark and Germany? I thought he knew everything

[/barefaced sarcasm]

It's all probably the same to him.. Just like atheists is equivocated with criminal/immoral and christian = can do no evil. JK probably thinks that all Europeans/Scandinavian and Canadians are one and the same people.

With all of JK's rantings about Europeans, atheists and his other opinions... I wonder if he is a member of the christian club called KKK.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Pssst! JK! Hans is Danish, not German. There's a difference, you know.

Anyway, does the questionable acts of various American politicians reflect badly on you? (The answer to that rhetorical question is no.)

Well what is he angry about? I wasn't talking about the Danes. He said I was talking about "his country".

JK

 

[Jedi Knight]

Nice going, Jedi.

I did consider asking you if knew at all what country I come from, but then you could have checked it. Now, however, you have, on your own volition, exposed yet another example on how you make statements based on ignorance.

I'm not German. I'm Danish. Because of certain things happening in the past, mistaking a Dane for a German might be considered an(other) insult. But since I'm sure you just did it out of ignorance, Mr. Genious, I'll let it pass.

(Sorry G6, this was probably not appropriate for a moderated thread, but a man can only take so much without answering.)

Hans

My accurate observation of the French and German cowardice displayed at the UN this week had nothing to do with your country, so why did you say it did?

...and with a name like Hans, it was perfectly plausible for me to think you were from Germany. I lived in Germany for several years and met many Germans with the first name, well you know, Hans.

JK

 

[MRC_Hans]

My accurate observation of the French and German cowardice displayed at the UN this week had nothing to do with your country, so why did you say it did?

...and with a name like Hans, it was perfectly plausible for me to think you were from Germany. I lived in Germany for several years and met many Germans with the first name, well you know, Hans.

JK

No, what you said was:

Europe is not a democracy. It is a collection of tiny socialist-communist states bent on the destruction of Israel because as atheists and radical Islamist supporters, that is their political nature.

Being a citizen of an European country, I naturally was offended. Confronted with this, you answered:

Your country offends the world. Maybe you should apologize.

- - -And now you tell me it was all based on you assuming my nationality from my first name. So can you understand why I don't count your credibility very high?

Hans

 

[headscratcher4]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This discussion is about Hitler's atheism, and how he used atheist institutions at the nation-state level to perform godless acts (acts removing omnipotent morality).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If that is indeed what the discussion is about, than your problems still remain, for if we are now going to argue that the Nazi institutions were atheist, you still have a long way to go. Nazi state laws recognizing various christian churches, allowing them to function inside and alongside the Nazi state, the supplying of pastors and priests to Army and SS units, the promotion of "traditional" German culture (including national mythology about christianity, Jews, etc), the endless stream of propoganda designed to enrage the people to align with the Nazis and their fithgt against atheistic, Jewish, communism...and on and on...

Further, as a leader/Feuher State, the state, its organization, its functioning was entirely dependant upon the lead of Hitler...my point is that because Hitler believed himself to be acting as an agent of God, so to, than, the State believed itself to be acting as an agent of God.

In short, while you might not like that interpretation of God, and while you might conclude that Hitler/Nazism was trying to create a new religion...it was explicitly a religion that saw the state as functioning under the mandate of higher authorities -- i.e. under Hitler, Hitler under god....

(Someone check me on this, but I'd bet dimes to dollars that the oath that members of the German Army swore to Adolf Hitler was an oath before god...at least that's how I remember it),

Once again, we are at a point of an assertion and interpretation that may be uniquely yours...it doesn't make it incorrect, but it means that the burden is on you to show how the state was "atheistic", how all of the symbols and references to a belief in god and Germany's role under god can be dismissed.

Finally, we are back to you determining what is "atheism" and doing so using a definition that is uniquely yours...

 

[Renfield]

Hitler was no atheist. He had a number of religious beliefs, and was heavily into the occult, as was most of the third reich.

So there.

 

[CWL]

One point that struck me and which also points in the general direction suggested by Headscratcher4 (that the doctrines of Nazi Germany are logical outflow from the doctrines of European Christian tradition as to Jews and Judaism) is the fact that KKK members believe themselves to be Christian and still have a strong hatred towards Jews. Klan members generally seem to have the view of that Jesus was an Aryan and that there is a "True Christianity" according to which the Jews (amongst others) are to be persecuted. This view corresponds very well to the beliefs that Hitler appears to have subsribed to.

 

[Nova Land]

Sorry to be away the last 5 days -- long weekend! I got home Monday evening, a little before midnight, but since I didn't have time to sleep Thursday or Sunday, and only had time for two hours sleep Saturday, I decided to wait until today to post.

I was able to spend a good amount of time at the library during this trip. Among items I was able to look at, two books of special interest are:

(a) The Nazi Voter, Thomas Childers, 1983 (U of NC Press), and
(b) Who Voted for Hitler?, Richard Hamilton, 1982 (Princeton U Press).

These seem to be good sources of information about the type of people who supported Hitler, including information on their religious beliefs. Both books are slow reading, and since there were many other things I needed to look up I skimmed key sections of both books but have not read either thoroughly yet. I took some notes, and will return to both books next trip.

Another Hitler-related book I looked at this trip was a recent edition of Bullock. The one I had previously looked at was the 1952 edition, which he wrote before the book of "table talks" was published (although Bullock was aware of them, and quoted briefly from some in that first edition). Since the 1952 edition included a line in which Bullock said Hitler "... believed neither in God nor in conscience...", I wanted to check whether his opinion changed or altered after the table talks were published.

In the "completely revised" 1962 edition, Bullock quotes extensively from the table talks. He also continues to maintain that Hitler did not believe in any god (p. 385). This would appear to present a slight contradiction, since Hitler referred to Providence, a "creative force", etc., various times in the table talks. Bullock briefly addresses this apparent contradiction a few pages later (p. 390), saying: "Hitler's belief in his own destiny held him back from a thorough-going atheism."

Another interesting source is this interactive "virtual interview" with Hitler. I am not familiar with the teacher who put this site together, but this appears to be a serious effort which received good reviews as an educational tool.

This program is rather simple and was unable to answer many of the questions I put to it. It is not authoritative by any means. However, I was interested to see that on religion, it unhesitatingly has Hitler declare himself an atheist.

What this says to me is that it is possible for reasonable people to hold that opinion. The opinion may or may not be correct -- that's why I'm interested in looking at and analyzing the evidence, and in hearing other people's analyses of the evidence -- but it is not an absurb opinion.

 

[Nova Land]

Hitler ... was heavily into the occult, as was most of the third reich.

So I've heard it asserted.

It does indeed seem true that many Nazis were into the occult. That's not surprising, since many people generally, then and now, seem to be into the occult. I get the impression from various places that the Nazis were more heavily into the occult than the population at large, but I have not seen clear evidence of that yet.

This appears to be one of those things that "everyone knows". To me, that's a red flag warning that it needs to be checked and verified before passing it along too confidently.

Do you have some reliable sources for this information that you can share?

Alan Bullock, Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, 1962 edition, p. 389:

Nor is there any evidence to substantiate the once popular belief that [Hitler] resorted to astrology. His secretary says categorically that he had nothing but contempt for such practices, although faith in the stars was certainly common among some of his followers like Himmler.

That indicates that the belief Hitler was into astrology and the occult may be more legend than fact.

(NOTE: There is, of course, Dennis O'Neil's classic work on this subject, Hitler's Astrologer, first published in 1988 and re-issued in 1991. I have read that, as I assume others here have. It is compelling, but stronger evidence may be needed as it seems difficult to verify the historical authenticity of at least one key figure in O'Neil's account.)

 

[Girl 6]

Just when I think we can't possibly keep going, you guys continually surprise me!

I'm bumping this up just in case there's any more discussion to be had.

Anyway, I'm still lurking around... So don't do anything that will make me regret taking this job.

G6

 

[Jedi Knight]

And please answer my questions too, JK. Here they are again:


Is your theory falsifiable or not? [Actually I'm not really sure it's a theory - what we're really discussing here is the definition of the word "atheist" and what it means to be one.]

It seems to me that you're saying that:

Only atheists/godless people do evil things
Hitler did evil things
Therefore Hitler was an atheist/godless

Now, obviously your definition of atheism has very little to do with other people's definition of that word, but apart from that using your logic we would have to label a number of popes and other religious authorities throughout history as atheist, do you agree?

You are missing my point which was very easy, extremely easy to understand. Let me use your logic problem but with a minor adjustment.

Atheist nation-states do evil things
Hitler did evil things
Therefore Hitler was an atheist

There you go--with a little encouragement you are on your way to understanding Hitler.

JK

 

[Jedi Knight]

One point that struck me and which also points in the general direction suggested by Headscratcher4 (that the doctrines of Nazi Germany are logical outflow from the doctrines of European Christian tradition as to Jews and Judaism) is the fact that KKK members believe themselves to be Christian and still have a strong hatred towards Jews. Klan members generally seem to have the view of that Jesus was an Aryan and that there is a "True Christianity" according to which the Jews (amongst others) are to be persecuted. This view corresponds very well to the beliefs that Hitler appears to have subsribed to.

That is the Christian Identity Movement, a new religious movement that didn't form until the 1970's. Any other ideas?

JK

 

[Latimer]

Atheist nation-states do evil things
Hitler did evil things
Therefore Hitler was an atheist

VERY short time tonight; I am in the middle of remodeling.

Theist nation-states do evil things. (Rome comes to mind, as well as others)
Hitler did evil things.
Therfore Hitler was a theist.

That was easy.

Keep smiling,

 

[the_ignored]

from Jedi Knight:

Atheist nation-states do evil things
Hitler did evil things
Therefore Hitler was an atheist

OK, did you know that in Mein Kampf Hitler had said that he got his ideas about the jews from some xian street-preacher named Karl Lueger, and not from any "atheist" doctrines?

Did you know that the theist Martin Luther wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies" which Julius Streicher (publisher of "Der Sturmer" paper) had said in the Nuremberg trials that if Martin Luther were there, he'd be in the dock with the rest of them, since all the Nazis were doing was stuff that the christian Martin Luther had suggested in his book?

Did you know that xians were killing jews for centuries before hitler ever came along?

Theologian Clark Williamson of Christian Theological Seminary, Indianapolis, said centuries of Christian hostility to Jews "prepared the way for the Holocaust" he said the Nazis "are inconcievable apart from this Christian tradition. Hitler's pogrom, for all its distinctiveness, is the zenith of a long Christian heritage of teaching and practice against Jews".

Theologian Richard Rubenstein wrote that the Nazis "did not invent a new vilain...They took over the 2,000-year-old Christian trdition of the Jew as villain...The roots of the death camps must be sought in the mythic structure of Christianity...Myths concerning the demonological role of the Jews have been operative in Christianity for centuries..."

p. 159-160 "Holy Horrors" by James A. Haught. The books from which the above guys were quoted from:

"After Auschwitz: Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps." Bobbs-Merrill, Indianapolis, Ind., 1966

"Has God Rejected His People? Anti-Judaism in the Christian Church", Abingdon, Nashville, Tenn. 1982


And you blame Hitlers' antisemitism on atheism? Learn some history instead of making it up on your own.

 

[Jedi Knight]

from Jedi Knight:


OK, did you know that in Mein Kampf Hitler had said that he got his ideas about the jews from some xian street-preacher named Karl Lueger, and not from any "atheist" doctrines?

Did you know that the theist Martin Luther wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies" which Julius Streicher (publisher of "Der Sturmer" paper) had said in the Nuremberg trials that if Martin Luther were there, he'd be in the dock with the rest of them, since all the Nazis were doing was stuff that the christian Martin Luther had suggested in his book?

Did you know that xians were killing jews for centuries before hitler ever came along?



p. 159-160 "Holy Horrors" by James A. Haught. The books from which the above guys were quoted from:

"After Auschwitz: Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps." Bobbs-Merrill, Indianapolis, Ind., 1966

"Has God Rejected His People? Anti-Judaism in the Christian Church", Abingdon, Nashville, Tenn. 1982


And you blame Hitlers' antisemitism on atheism? Learn some history instead of making it up on your own.

I will counter those opinions with three simple questions:

1) Why was there no Church authority in the Nazi state?

2) If Christianity was so cool and fashionable with the Nazis, why did they make Rome sign a surrender treaty?

3) If Christians did exist in Germany, why didn't the "church" stop the jews from being killed?

There has been much opinion, like those you posted, that try to connect Hitler to Christianity. That helped the wounded and survivors of the time try and identify with the cause of their suffering and an attempt to understand the reason why.

Hitler, as an atheist, selected atheism as the state religion because it empowered the Nazi state system. Fascism is fueled by a bureaucracy that is not distracted with other power flows. That is why Hitler didn't tolerate any authority in his country but the state's.

Hitler also needed someone to blame for Germany's World War I surrender, so he could motivate the populations of Germany into World War II. He chose the Jews because they owned most of the manufacturing and Hitler wanted to steal it.

There was no Hitler Christian plan. Hitler didn't believe in the omnipotent being. Hitler believed that he was God.

Then you threw in some ad hominem: Learn some history instead of making it up on your own.

Ah yes, the leftist credential nonsense.

JK

 

[Nova Land]

Aardvark_DK (to Jedi):

It seems to me that you're saying that:

Only atheists/godless people do evil things
Hitler did evil things
Therefore Hitler was an atheist/godless

Jedi Knight (in response):

You are missing my point...

Atheist nation-states do evil things
Hitler did evil things
Therefore Hitler was an atheist

I can see 2 differences between Aardvark's attempt to state your position and yours:

(1) Aardvark referred to atheists doing evil things; you refer to atheist nation-states.
(2) Aardvark used the modifier "only", which you have omitted.

In both cases, the change confuses rather than clarifies.

(1) "Atheist nation-states do evil things." It still needs to be established that Nazi Germany was an atheist nation-state, but that's a separate matter. The immediate problem is that Hitler is not a nation-state.

If you want to substitute the word "Germany" for "Hitler", some kind of syllogism might be possible. Is that what you intended?

(2) Without the word "only", this syllogism does not make sense. Is this simply carelessness, and you intended to retain the word "only", or is the omission deliberate?

Jedi Knight:

[My point] was very easy, extremely easy to understand...

The way Aardvark worded the point was clear and easy to understand, but you say that is not what you intended.

I'm sincerely trying to understand your point, but the way you have worded it your point remains unclear.

 

[Nova Land]

CWL:

...KKK members believe themselves to be Christian and still have a strong hatred towards Jews...

Jedi Knight

That is the Christian Identity Movement, a new religious movement that didn't form until the 1970's.

CWL is correct. The KKK's racism was explicitly rooted in Christian beliefs.

The Christian Identity Movement also bases its racism on religious beliefs. But the KKK's use of religion as an underpinning goes back much further.

 

[the_ignored]

from Jedi Knight:

I will counter those opinions with three simple questions:

Ah, those were not opinions. Those were actual facts, some part of the record at the Nuremberg site, some (like Luther's book) published on paper and the internet, and some (like from Hitler's Mein Kampf) are also in print. They are not what people think happened. They are records showing what people did think, and do.

from Jedi Knight:

1) Why was there no Church authority in the Nazi state?

Wrong.

Pacelli became a crowned Pope on March 12, 1939 (Pius XII). The following month on April 20, 1939, at Pacelli's express wish, Archbishop Orsenigo, the nuncio in Berlin, opened a gala reception for Hitler's fiftieth birthday. The birthday greetings thus initiated by Pacelli immediately became a tradition; each April 20 during the few years left to Hitler and his Reich, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin would send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany," to which he added "fervent prayers which the Catholics in Germany are sending to heaven on their altars." [Cornwell, p. 209] By this time Pacelli could call on the loyalty and devotion of a half-billion people, of which half the populations of Hitler's new Reich had become Catholics, including a quarter of the SS. At this time bishops, clergy, religious, and faithful had bound themselves to the Pope, and by his own self estimation, served as the supreme arbiter of moral values on earth. [Cornwell, p. 215]

from Jedi Knight:

2) If Christianity was so cool and fashionable with the Nazis, why did they make Rome sign a surrender treaty?

This was no surrender treaty. Rome never gave up anything to the Nazis. If anything, Catholicism was strengthened:

The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.
-Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party (quoted from John Cornwell's "Hitler's Pope"

See the below quote:

each April 20 during the few years left to Hitler and his Reich, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin would send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany," to which he added "fervent prayers which the Catholics in Germany are sending to heaven on their altars." [Cornwell, p. 209] By this time Pacelli could call on the loyalty and devotion of a half-billion people, of which half the populations of Hitler's new Reich had become Catholics, including a quarter of the SS.

from: http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm#anchor2a

http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm

(even more importantly, see his sources: )

In the 1930s, Pacelli and his associates negotiated with the Nazis to form a contract which got signed in 1933 as the Reich Concordat with the approval of the Pope. Note that the Catholic hierarchy believes in the infallibility of Popes in matters of faith and morals (ever since the First Vatican Council of 1870). This Concordat with its Papal infallible authority had arguably neutralized the potential of 23 million Catholics to protest and resist and which helped Hitler into legal dictatorship. [Cornwell, p. 4] After the agreement, Hitler, mimicking Pacelli fourteen years earlier stated, "I will devote my entire strength to cultivating and strengthening the relations between the Holy See and Germany." [Cornwell, p. 136] (Hitler, spent more time and effort on the concordat with Pacelli than on any other treaty in the entire era of the Third Reich [Cornwell, p. 150]). This Concordat gave Germany an opportunity to create an area of trust with the Church and gave significance to the developing struggle against international Jewry. According to John Cornwell, this papal endorsement of Nazism helped seal the fate of Europe which makes it plausible that these Catholic prejudices bolstered aspects of Nazi anti-Semitism. [Cornwell, p. 28]

The Concordat and the following Jewish persecutions resulted in the silence of the Pope and the bishops. Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich, referring to the Nazi attacks on the Jews, wrote to Pacelli, confirming that protest proved pointless since it could only extend the struggle to Catholics. He told Pacelli, "Jews can help themselves." [Cornwell, p. 140] Most bishops and Cardinals were Nazi sympathizers as were bishop Wilhelm Berning of Osnabruck and Archbishop Grober of Freiurg ( Pacelli's choice for emissaries).

On April 25, thousands of Catholic priests across Germany became part of an anti-Semitic attestation bureaucracy, supplying details of blood purity through marriage and baptism registries in accordance with the Nazi Nuremberg laws which distinguished Jews from non-Jews. Catholic clerical compliance in the process would continue throughout the period of the Nazi regime. [Cornwell, pp.154] Any claimed saving of all-too-few Jewish lives by a few brave Catholics must stand against the millions who died in the death camps as an indirect result of the official workings of the Catholic body.

After Kristallnacht (where Nazis broke Jewish store windows and had synagogues burned) there issued not a single word of condemnation from the Vatican, the German Church hierarchy, or from Pacelli. Yet in an encyclical on anti-Semitism, titled Humani generis unitas (The Unity of the Human Race) by Pope Pius XI, a section claims that the Jews were responsible for their own fate. God had chosen them to make way for Christ's redemption but they denied him and killed him. And now, "Blinded by their dream of worldly gain and material success," they had deserved the "worldly and spiritual ruin" that they had brought down upon themselves. [Cornwell, p. 191]

Cardinal Theodor Innitzer, archbishop of Vienna warmly received Hitler in Vienna after his triumphal march through the capital where he expressed public satisfaction with Hitler's regime. [Cornwell, p. 201] Meanwhile, Cardinal Bertram sent Hitler an effusive telegram, published on October 2 in the Nazi newspaper Volkischer Beobachter, "The great deed of safeguarding peace among the nations moves the German episcopate acting in the name of the Catholics of all the German dioceses, respectfully to extend congratulations and thanks and to order a festive ringing of bells on Sunday." [Cornwell, p. 202]

from Jedi Knight:

3) If Christians did exist in Germany, why didn't the "church" stop the jews from being killed?

Duh! The christians were on the side of the Nazis! Hello! Did you not read anything I posted? Remember, it was the christian church that had demonized the jews for centuries in the first place!

see: http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
Here's some stuff from Hitler's speeches you'll find interesting. Ask yourself: If Hitler was an atheist, and only "atheist" govts do this stuff, as you claim, then what the hell is this:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice....
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people....
When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

[Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt. 3:7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3]

The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life....
The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed....
It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith.
The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933