(Ed) Hitler's Atheism

[Jedi Knight]

...and doubt as to the existence of God in the absence of any evidence (my personal stance) is what in your dictionary? I am not "convinced of any outcome" as you put it - I do not believe in a supreme supernatural being because I see no evidence therefor. How is that not being a "true skeptic"? Should we be "agnostic" as to the existence of unicorns as well? Or, should we doubt their existence until the contrary has been proven?

BTW, you have failed to respond to two other questions I have asked you:

1) What is your source for your statement that "atheism" is a "1% minority population opinion"?

2) Do you at least admit the possibility that Hitler could have believed in a god despite the atrocities for which he was responsible?

(Point being that if you do not admit such a possibility, any discussion with you as to whether or not Hitler was an atheist seems rather pointless. Your mind is then made up no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented. I would personally not call this a skeptical position - as HS4 so puts it, we have in such case "passed beyond a place where fact, logic, history, etc. have any meaning".)

Let me ask you this--if you really "doubt" about the existence of an omnipotent being, then you have no problem whatsoever with people who do believe in one, right?

JK

 

[Jedi Knight]

JK, we can easily agree that political correctness is rubbish and a a lot of people take it to ridiculous extremes, but apart from that I was unable to find a single reference to Stalin in any of the links you provided. Maybe I just missed it?


And I ask again: Do you believe that any Christian person in the history of Christianity has done a bad thing? And if they have was it because they were suffering from temporary atheism? Popes? Crusaders? Inquisitors? Were they Christians at the time they did various horrible things?

Stalinism = leftism on univerity campuses. Every single one of those links was a description of university Stalinism.

JK

 

[c4ts]

Let me ask you this--if you really "doubt" about the existence of an omnipotent being, then you have no problem whatsoever with people who do believe in one, right?

JK

That would depend on the person.

 

[Jedi Knight]

That would depend on the person.

No, the person has nothing to do with it. If you "doubt" God, how can you actively try to "kill" other people's Gods? How is it possible to "doubt" God and then tell other people, regardless of who they are, that they should abandoned their belief in them?

It makes no sense and once again is another brilliant Jedi observation.

JK

 

[c4ts]

No, the person has nothing to do with it. If you "doubt" God, how can you actively try to "kill" other people's Gods? How is it possible to "doubt" God and then tell other people, regardless of who they are, that they should abandoned their belief in them?

It makes no sense and once again is another brilliant Jedi observation.

JK

Your observation makes no sense, indeed.

Observation: My roomate has "rejoice in the glory of the Lord" hanging on his wall, and a metal cross hanging over his bed, but I don't need to bother him about it or scoff at him. His beliefs are his business, not mine. Demanding that he take the poster down isn't going to benefit either of us.

However, unlike my roommate, abandoning your belief would benefit others, if not yourself, because not only do you try to make your beliefs everybody's business, you post things that are either contradictory or in direct conflict with reality, in a very vindictive manner. If you act on your convictions that all atheists are evil, for example, and that evil should be eliminated, then you're no better off than Hitler.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Here is the evidence part 1.


JK

LOL. What's your next source of evidence... the onion?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Stalinism = leftism on univerity campuses. Every single one of those links was a description of university Stalinism.

JK

Please provide valid evidence of this assertion. Are you going to imply that democrats are all Stalin's followers? Does this mean that all right-wingers are Inquisitionists?

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Stalinism = leftism on univerity campuses. Every single one of those links was a description of university Stalinism.

So anything that you consider "leftist" - and I imagine that must be quite a bit - is the same as Stalinism?

---

And I ask again: Do you believe that any Christian person in the history of Christianity has done a bad thing? And if they have was it because they were suffering from temporary atheism? Popes? Crusaders? Inquisitors? Were they Christians at the time they did various horrible things?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Your observation makes no sense, indeed.

Observation: My roomate has "rejoice in the glory of the Lord" hanging on his wall, and a metal cross hanging over his bed, but I don't need to bother him about it or scoff at him. His beliefs are his business, not mine. Demanding that he take the poster down isn't going to benefit either of us.

However, unlike my roommate, abandoning your belief would benefit others, if not yourself, because not only do you try to make your beliefs everybody's business, you post things that are either contradictory or in direct conflict with reality, in a very vindictive manner. If you act on your convictions that all atheists are evil, for example, and that evil should be eliminated, then you're no better off than Hitler.

You just don't "get it". I said on this thread in particular that Hitler selected atheism as the natural tool for the advancement of the Nazi state. There was no room for religion in the National Socialist agenda because fascists do not share power. Name one non-crony religious leader empowered by Hitler in Nazi Germany.

The atheist without political ambition and alone in his wanderings is perfectly harmless. The atheist who seizes state power is wicked. Just ask the survivors of the Nazi onslaught for proof of that.

That is not "vindictive"--it is historical fact.

JK

 

[c4ts]

You just don't "get it". I said on this thread in particular that Hitler selected atheism as the natural tool for the advancement of the Nazi state.

Jedi, since I understand how Hitler could encourage belief in his lies instead of belief in God, but that does not appear to be what he actually did it, nor does that even make him an atheist. So I don't understand why atheism is "the natural tool for the advancement of the Nazi state," nor do I understand why the title of the thread is "Hitler's atheism" when it looks like Hitler was a theist, and therefore not an atheist at the same time in the same respect.

There was no room for religion in the National Socialist agenda because fascists do not share power.

So alliance is not a sharing of power? For it seems if Fascists did not share power, then they could not ally with each other.

Name one non-crony religious leader empowered by Hitler in Nazi Germany.

I can't define

The atheist without political ambition and alone in his wanderings is perfectly harmless.

Not necessarily. The athiest without political ambition with a loaded gun pressing the barrel to your skull, is harmful enough without political ambition. I think you are confusing injustice and ambition with atheism.

The atheist who seizes state power is wicked.

The fact that they seize state power makes them wicked. It doesn't matter if they are atheist or not.

Just ask the survivors of the Nazi onslaught for proof of that.

I have spoken with a few holocaust survivors, I have even visited the holocaust museum in D.C., and all but one of them said they don't know why Hitler would do such a thing. The one guy who thought he knew why attributed it to basic insanity, and he lectured to my middle school class.

That is not "vindictive"--it is historical fact.

JK

Then supply some more credible evidence.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Then supply some more credible evidence.

Nazi Germany and World War II? History books? How much evidence do you need? Hop on down to the library and read about it. You do have a library card, don't you?

JK

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Nazi Germany and World War II? History books? How much evidence do you need? Hop on down to the library and read about it. You do have a library card, don't you?

The problem is, JK, that you have provided no evidence what so ever that the Nazis were atheists. You said:

The atheist who seizes state power is wicked. Just ask the survivors of the Nazi onslaught for proof of that. That is not "vindictive"--it is historical fact.

But it not an historical fact that Nazi Germany was an atheist state and it does not become an historical fact just because you repeat it over and over and over.

Your "evidence" so far, as far as I can see, is that Christians couldn't have done what the Nazis did because Christians believe they have to answer to God. Is that correct? And if that is correct then I think you should answer these questions:

Do you believe that any Christian person in the history of Christianity has done a bad thing? And if they have was it because they were suffering from temporary atheism? Popes? Crusaders? Inquisitors? Were they Christians at the time they did various horrible things?

 

[c4ts]

Nazi Germany and World War II? History books? How much evidence do you need? Hop on down to the library and read about it. You do have a library card, don't you?

JK

If you can find a history book that says Nazi Germany was an atheist state, then quote it here. If you can find someone who knew Hitler and isn't senile or anything, who says Hitler was an atheist, then introduce him or her to this forum. I have been to the library. I have read many books thoroughly. I have yet to read a book that actually says the Nazis were atheists. (In comparison, I have read many books that say the Communists were atheists). I don't know who told you Hitler was an atheist, but he or she was probably mistaken. Your conclusion that the Nazis were atheists is highly unlikely, although not impossible, yet instead of making further arguments to support your claim with evidence or valid reductios, you go on to assume that you're already correct and you repeat yourself.

 

[CWL]

Let me ask you this--if you really "doubt" about the existence of an omnipotent being, then you have no problem whatsoever with people who do believe in one, right?

JK

You are most welcome to ask me anything. The answer is simple: correct, no problem whatsoever. Again people's religious beliefs are a private matter - neither the business of the state, nor of anyone else. My only problem with belief in an omnipotent being is when it gets in the way of critical thinking (extreme Islamism or other fundamentalist movements being prime examples).

Now, since I am willing to answer your questions, perhaps you would care to answer mine?

I take the liberty of repeating myself:

1) What is your source for your statement that "atheism" is a "1% minority population opinion"?

2) Do you at least admit the possibility that Hitler could have believed in a god despite the atrocities for which he was responsible?

 

[Jedi Knight]

The problem is, JK, that you have provided no evidence what so ever that the Nazis were atheists. You said:

Sure I do. The fact that Nazi Germany existed is proof. The Nazi nation-state system was developed under ideology of Hegel and Niezche (God is dead, in order for a perfect nation-state to evolve all populations must walk away from the omnipotent being, and humans are the true "supermen").

JK

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Thus ends the discussion.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Thus ends the discussion.

Well, when I present historical facts, what else is left to say?

JK

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Well, when I present historical facts, what else is left to say?

Since you have consistently ignored all historical facts presented to you by Headscratcher and NovaLand, there is indeed nothing left to say.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Since you have consistently ignored all historical facts presented to you by Headscratcher and NovaLand, there is indeed nothing left to say.

Nothing has been ignored. When an evil atheist like Hitler says something and then does the opposite, do we give credit to his "words" or actions? If we give credit to his "words" that would mean we have to ignore the 6,000,000 Jews he put inside ovens which would be dismissing factual history. Orwell talked about what you want, but I side with real history.

JK

 

[thaiboxerken]

Nothing has been ignored. When an evil atheist like Hitler says something and then does the opposite, do we give credit to his "words" or actions?

He did exactly what he said he wanted to do. He thought himself as a warrior of jesus, here to avenge jesus' death upon the jews, among other things.


If we give credit to his "words" that would mean we have to ignore the 6,000,000 Jews he put inside ovens which would be dismissing factual history. Orwell talked about what you want, but I side with real history.

JK

If we ignore words, then we ignore why people do certain deeds like this. If we simply went off of actions and subjective interpretation of what a "true" christian is, then we ignore reality. Your logic could be used for any religion or circumstance. I could, with just as much validity, say that Hitler couldn't be atheist because atheists can do no evil. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? You do the same thing by implying that christians can do no evil.

We are not ignoring the holocaust, in fact, we are learning from it and learning what causes people to think such ways. Hitler believed in Jesus and the bible. No matter how perverse or unchristian you think he was, all the evidence points to his actual belief in these things. Of course his translation is different than yours, and this often happens. But Hitler easily could've used the bible to justify his actions.

Titus 1:10-11 To Paul, Jews are unruly liars "whose mouths must be stopped."

John 5:16,18 John, with his usual anti-Semitism, says that the Jews persecuted Jesus and "sought to slay him

John 7:1 John says that Jesus "would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him."

John 8:44 Jesus calls his opponents (the Jews) the sons of the devil.

Your position is the dishonest position that all christians are perfect.