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(Ed) Hitler's Atheism

On 12-06-2002 07:59 AM, Darat writes:

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Originally posted by Soubrette
Darat

In what way would you say Hitler was insane? I remember watching a documentary which hypothesised that he was in fact a fairly garbled and inconsistent rambler about his beliefs and most atrocities carried out were done by his inner circle in the belief they were doing what he wanted.


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Undoubtedly there was a lot of second guessing by Hitler's subordinates and acting in his name. However Hitler was kept well informed about what was happening almost until the end of the war. He certainly did know about the tactics used in his rise to power, he endorsed and encouraged terror as a “tool” to deliver on his political goals.


quote:
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Originally posted by Soubrette


My sister had the pleasure of reading Mein Kampf for her A level history. She said it was a very difficult read and confusing in places - would you say this was a clue to his insanity or do you mean that by his deeds we should infer he was insane?

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I agree with your sister’s comment about it being confusing - I've never managed to read it from cover to cover merely dipped into it. It is sickening and totally irrational - riddled with every kind of logical and factual fallacy you can imagine and if it truly represents Hitler's thoughts then yes I would say it is evidence of his insanity.

However the primary reason I say he was insane is indeed his actions.


quote:
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Originally posted by Soubrette

And I agree with you Whether Hitler was an atheist or Christian is irrelevent with regard to his subsequent deeds - it's just interesting to see how a mind such as his works - or as much as we can see by peering back through the mists of time

It's also interesting to see how the minds of the people debating this issue work too - be careful I can see inside your psyche

Sou
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As always dear Sou you know me too well...
 
On 12-06-2002 08:03 AM, Jedi Knight writes:

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Originally posted by CWL
Nova Land,

I for one commend you on your efforts on a serious discussion regarding the topic in question. I shall henceforth do my utmost to keep my satire gland in check (however in this thread only ).

Hoping to contribute to such a serious discussion I will submit the following:

1) Hitler repeatedly attacks atheism in Table Talks;

2) Nazi Socialism was based on an idealistic belief system and ultimately on a "mission from God" to create a 1,000 year reign, in conformity with which Hitler repeatedly made references to God in his speeches and writings.

It is my sincere and honest hope that Mr. Knight (or anyone else who asserts that Hitler was an atheist) will seriously address why it is reasonable to conclude that Hitler was an atheist despite the two facts stated above.

I will add that I am have no personal interest in the matter, merely that I believe that history should be accounted for correctly.
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Easy questions and even easier answers.

1) Hitler lied in Table Talks to form a positive propagandized posterity account for future global populations that the Reich would reign over. The Table Talks were "authored" by Hitler. It is a well-known historical fact that Hitler was a chronic, habitual, political liar.

2) Hitler's "mission from God" was an atheist action to remake the world in the Nazi image, liquidating Christianity and the guardians and architects of Christianity (the church, Jews, etc).

All points are historically accurate and proven by Hitler's deeds.

JK
 
On 12-06-2002 08:10 AM, CWL writes:

Could you please provide the evidence on the basis of which you drew your conclusions according to Items 1) and 2) above.

Thanks.
 
On 12-06-2002 08:11 AM, Jedi Knight writes:

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Originally posted by Darat
I mentioned it in an earlier post - Ian Kershaw's two volume biography of Hitler. It's an incredible work that not only chronicles Hitler's life but also the times he lived in. And to try and understand Hitler you have to try and understand the times he lived in. However in the final analysis Hitler was insane so I doubt any sane person can ever truly “understand” him.
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Hitler wasn't insane. His actions make him appear insane. He had no moral religious grounding (was an atheist), followed Hegelism religiously (Hegel was a strict atheist), and Hitler's deeds were against institutions of Christianity (freedom, Jews, etc).

He was an atheist.

JK
 
On 12-06-2002 08:12 AM, Jedi Knight writes:

quote:
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Originally posted by CWL


Could you please provide the evidence on the basis of which you drew your conclusions according to Items 1) and 2) above.

Thanks.
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Sure. History.

JK
 
On 12-06-2002 08:38 AM, CWL writes:

quote:
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Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Sure. History.

JK
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You wouldn't care to elaborate a bit on that perchance?
 
On 12-06-2002 08:49 AM, whitefork writes:

Hegel was an atheist? GWF Hegel, the "one big Spirit" guy?

"Religion is our topic. Its contents is this and this alone: God. Religion is the consciousness of the relationship with God, as the unconditioned Absolute, the absolutely self-sufficient, the being that is because of itself, the absolute beginning and goal in itself and on its own." (G.W.F. Hegel, Philosophy of Religion, 1824)

from http://www.hegel.net/spirit/abs/religion/

You sure about that?
 
On 12-06-2002 08:55 AM, slimshady2357 writes:

quote:
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Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Hitler wasn't insane. His actions make him appear insane. He had no moral religious grounding (was an atheist), followed Hegelism religiously (Hegel was a strict atheist), and Hitler's deeds were against institutions of Christianity (freedom, Jews, etc).

He was an atheist.

JK
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Hegel was not atheist.

Why do you think he was?

READ some Hegel.

Is everyone who doesn't believe in the christian god an atheist for you?

Jedi, why do you say these things?

Adam
 
On 12-06-2002 09:15 AM, headscratcher4 writes:

Serious question JK:

We've discussed your contention regarding Hitler's religous beliefs. You've insisted that his actions/deeds speak louder than words and that the deed of overseeing the death of millions could not eminate from one who believes in an ultimate higher authority, ergo Hitler is an atheist. Also, as noted, his table talk and writings are propoganda, so any expression of belief in any sort of a deity can be dismissed.

I recently finished Richard Rhodes interesting book on the SS and the action groups opperating in Poland and Russia at the beginning of the war. He talks about massacres over-seen by the SS by organized by Poles, Ukranians etc. THere have also been recent stories regarding Polish villages who turned on their jewish residents/neighbors, etc.

In short, for every christian Pole who saved a Jew, there were tens, if not Hundreds, who actively used the Nazi invasion, and were used by the Nazis to exact revenge, terror, murder, theft on their Jewish neighbors. Indeed, even today, though it is a heavilly Catholic country, anti-semitism in Poland is much noted and lively (strange for a country of only 4000 jews).

My question has to do with the Poles. I assume that the Poles who proclaimed themselves Catholic, went to church, took communion, etc. AND who actively participated in the persecution of Jews during the war were Atheists? I mean, weren't they paying lip service to the church but infact, through their deeds, exhibiting a complete lack of fear of devine retribution?

In short, it seems to me that, by your definition, these murderers were either atheists, or one man's atheism (Hitlers) trumps all of the belief and fear of divine judgment that people are otherwise "hard-wired" to have. I mean Hitler was an Atheist, according to you, but Nazism didn't officially "embrace" atheism, it tried behind a veneer of religiosity. It got hundreds of thousands of German protestants and catholics to do its bidding. It got thousands of Poles to do its bidding and seemingly willingly.

In other words, the fear of god that you believe is an anctidote for terror and mass murder didn't seem to be operating under the conditions imposed by Nazism. That hard wire doesn't seem too secure to me.
 
On 12-06-2002 09:36 AM, Jedi Knight writes:

quote:
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Originally posted by whitefork
Hegel was an atheist? GWF Hegel, the "one big Spirit" guy?

"Religion is our topic. Its contents is this and this alone: God. Religion is the consciousness of the relationship with God, as the unconditioned Absolute, the absolutely self-sufficient, the being that is because of itself, the absolute beginning and goal in itself and on its own." (G.W.F. Hegel, Philosophy of Religion, 1824)

from http://www.hegel.net/spirit/abs/religion/

You sure about that?
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Absolutely. What does Hegel say about self-annihilation and where did he get that?

I don't have the time to teach you guys about Hegel and Nietzsche. In sum, Hegel opened the door for Nietzche to declare that "God is dead". Hitler latched onto Nietzche's "superman" philosophy and mirrored it into the "master race" Nazi agenda.

In order to understand why Hitler was an atheist you have to understand Hegel and Nietzche as they are, not as leftists teach them in many universities.

God, to German philosophes that Hitler admired, was a tool to propel civilization to a point--once that point was crossed then man would not need God. God was dead. Civilization killed God because man was now the God (atheism).

There was no room for God in the Nazi state. Ask yourself why and think about how the german populations could be so complacent to the atrocities and godless actions that endured there. If you were a citizen of Germany and you saw your neighbors being led away by Nazi SS battalions to concentration camps, how could you not question it?

One of the most troubling questions of Nazi Germany is that truth, and it haunts the german people to this day. How can populations, entire populations be removed and sent to efficient, bureaucratized facilities for liquidation (extermination) without the internal populations knowing about it? The bureaucracy was massive in Nazi Germany and 1 out of 4 citizens was employed in that system at the time.

German populations were godless populations and the removal of morality from Germany in the mid-1800's through World War Two is a classic example of atheism and its interaction with state power in the objective of totalitarianism and the ultimate goal of efficiency.

JK
 
On 12-06-2002 09:43 AM, Jedi Knight writes:

quote:
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Originally posted by headscratcher4
Serious question JK:

We've discussed your contention regarding Hitler's religous beliefs. You've insisted that his actions/deeds speak louder than words and that the deed of overseeing the death of millions could not eminate from one who believes in an ultimate higher authority, ergo Hitler is an atheist. Also, as noted, his table talk and writings are propoganda, so any expression of belief in any sort of a deity can be dismissed.

I recently finished Richard Rhodes interesting book on the SS and the action groups opperating in Poland and Russia at the beginning of the war. He talks about massacres over-seen by the SS by organized by Poles, Ukranians etc. THere have also been recent stories regarding Polish villages who turned on their jewish residents/neighbors, etc.

In short, for every christian Pole who saved a Jew, there were tens, if not Hundreds, who actively used the Nazi invasion, and were used by the Nazis to exact revenge, terror, murder, theft on their Jewish neighbors. Indeed, even today, though it is a heavilly Catholic country, anti-semitism in Poland is much noted and lively (strange for a country of only 4000 jews).

My question has to do with the Poles. I assume that the Poles who proclaimed themselves Catholic, went to church, took communion, etc. AND who actively participated in the persecution of Jews during the war were Atheists? I mean, weren't they paying lip service to the church but infact, through their deeds, exhibiting a complete lack of fear of devine retribution?

In short, it seems to me that, by your definition, these murderers were either atheists, or one man's atheism (Hitlers) trumps all of the belief and fear of divine judgment that people are otherwise "hard-wired" to have. I mean Hitler was an Atheist, according to you, but Nazism didn't officially "embrace" atheism, it tried behind a veneer of religiosity. It got hundreds of thousands of German protestants and catholics to do its bidding. It got thousands of Poles to do its bidding and seemingly willingly.

In other words, the fear of god that you believe is an anctidote for terror and mass murder didn't seem to be operating under the conditions imposed by Nazism. That hard wire doesn't seem too secure to me.
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The Poles were responding as a population to a surprise military attack and then the subsequent subordination to the Nazi state bureaucracy. The church didn't have any authority in Poland after the Nazis invaded and every country has deep reserves of citizens who will respond favorably to the temporary promises of the fascist system that overwhelms it.

You and I discussed how religion was removed from german populations when Luther detached himself from Rome. Now imagine dozens of generations following that and inject Hegel and Nietzche philosphies about God into all the leadership cells of the German state.

With God removed from the German populations for so long the German people began to shout for a prince, a savior. They chose their savior in Hitler and he was their prince and they gave themselves to him willingly.

JK
 
On 12-06-2002 09:50 AM, headscratcher4 writes:

quote:
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Originally posted by Jedi Knight


The Poles were responding as a population to a surprise military attack and then the subsequent subordination to the Nazi state bureaucracy. The church didn't have any authority in Poland after the Nazis invaded and every country has deep reserves of citizens who will respond favorably to the temporary promises of the fascist system that overwhelms it.

You and I discussed how religion was removed from german populations when Luther detached himself from Rome. Now imagine dozens of generations following that and inject Hegel and Nietzche philosphies about God into all the leadership cells of the German state.

With God removed from the German populations for so long the German people began to shout for a prince, a savior. They chose their savior in Hitler and he was their prince and they gave themselves to him willingly.

JK
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So basically, 1000 years+ of Christianity, Catholic doctrine, religious grounding, Christian culture, dogma, schools, fear of hell, etc. went out the door in a matter of hours/days? In short, all of the hard-wiring frayed and disapated almost immediately...again, it sort of suggests that the "hard-wiring" you speak of isn't very tight.

Again, my point is to your: you have contended that if you believe in god, you can't commit these kinds of crimes because, in the end, there will be divine...are you now telling me that if you believe in god but are under duress you can commit these kinds of crimes?
 
On 12-06-2002 09:58 AM, RandFan writes:

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Originally posted by Soubrette
Another interesting thought. If someone should be judged by what they do and not what they say - then is anyone truly a Christian. or a Jew or a member of any religious order? Most people strive to follow the tenets laid down by their religion but are likely to fail at one point or another - does this make them all atheists in reality? Or is it the magnitude of the transgression that counts?
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This caught my eye also. Acording to prevailing christian dogma (AIUI) "we are all short of the glory of god". No one is perfect. Now it is possible that someone pretends to be christian and in reality does not believe it at all. I for example came to believe less and less in Mormonism. Yet I continued to go to church and act like I was a believer. The process was gradual so I'm not certain that I can say exactly at what moment I wasn't a believer yet continued to go. There did come a time that I was no longer able to continue to put on a charade but there were times that I acted like I believed but did in fact I did not.
 
On 12-06-2002 10:00 AM, Jedi Knight writes:

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Originally posted by headscratcher4


So basically, 1000 years+ of Christianity, Catholic doctrine, religious grounding, Christian culture, dogma, schools, fear of hell, etc. went out the door in a matter of hours/days? In short, all of the hard-wiring frayed and disapated almost immediately...again, it sort of suggests that the "hard-wiring" you speak of isn't very tight.

Again, my point is to your: you have contended that if you believe in god, you can't commit these kinds of crimes because, in the end, there will be divine...are you now telling me that if you believe in god but are under duress you can commit these kinds of crimes?
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You should know better than to say that. The German populations had religion stripped from them and morality stripped from them over a period of several centuries. When Hitler seized power he had a loyal mob standing by and that mob was the whole of Germany.

How can people actively and freely pursue religious belief and customs when the very nation-state that they exist in forbids it?

Are Christian bibles allowed in Iran?

If you live inside a totalitarian state void of morality, are you going to say no when you are ordered to be a camp guard? Would a Christian church order you to gas Jews?

JK
 
On 12-06-2002 10:36 AM, RandFan writes:

quote:
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Originally posted by Soubrette
In what way would you say Hitler was insane? I remember watching a documentary which hypothesised that he was in fact a fairly garbled and inconsistent rambler about his beliefs and most atrocities carried out were done by his inner circle in the belief they were doing what he wanted.

My sister had the pleasure of reading Mein Kampf for her A level history. She said it was a very difficult read and confusing in places - would you say this was a clue to his insanity or do you mean that by his deeds we should infer he was insane?
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I hate to be pedantic but I think it important to note that the term "insane" is used more by the judicial system and is not even a medical term. It is not really helpful in understanding the mental abilities of an individual. I know that we have all come to a vague understanding of it but it does not really tell us very much. Clearly Hitler was functional; he did not foam at the mouth or bark at the moon. He did however seem incapable of empathy for certain groups of people and perhaps he lacked any real empathy at all. He was clearly a megalomaniac and capable of inflicting suffering on a grand scale. I would suspect that Hitler was a sociopath.

I think the question that you are trying to ask is, to what extent if any was Hitler delusional? Was his megalomania an obsession or was it much more? Did Hitler see himself as a god or somehow separate from and or superior to other human beings? If Hitler was delusional I think this is most likely.

Did Hitler hear voices or see visions (hallucinations)? As far as I know he didn't. It is a very interesting question though. I hope not too far off topic.
 
On 12-06-2002 10:52 AM, Darat writes:

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Originally posted by RandFan
I hate to be pedantic but I think it important to note that the term "insane" is used more by the judicial system and is not even a medical term. It is not really helpful in understanding the mental abilities of an individual. I know that we have all come to a vague understanding of it but it does not really tell us very much. Clearly Hitler was functional; he did not foam at the mouth or bark at the moon. He did however seem incapable of empathy for certain groups of people and perhaps he lacked any real empathy at all. He was clearly a megalomaniac and capable of inflicting suffering on a grand scale. I would suspect that Hitler was a sociopath.

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I understand that "insane" is a rather vague term but it does seem to fit Hitler, from my limited knowledge.

He did, quite literally, foam at the mouth sometimes and when you read what he wrote, the sheer irrationality, the complete disregard for facts, the absolute hatred of anything that he didn't "approve" of I can't think of any other term to use then "insane".

(And it appears there is evidence that he did have times in his life when he quite literally couldn't "function". There is also evidence that he formed at least one "emotional bond" and that was with his dog.)


quote:
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Originally posted by RandFan

I think your the question that you are trying to ask is, to what extent if any was Hitler delusional? Was his megalomania an obsession or was it much more? Did Hitler see himself as a god or somehow separate from and or superior to other human beings? If Hitler was delusional I think this is most likely.

Did Hitler hear voices or see visions (hallucinations)? As far as I know he didn't. It is a very interesting question though. I hope not too far off topic.
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I haven't read about him claiming visions in the sense of hearing voices however he did talk a lot about his dreams and certainly believed they had prophetic qualities.

(I do admit my use of the word “insane” to describe Hitler is as much based on the fact that I can't think of any word but "insane" to describe someone capable of doing and condoning what he did rather then a “medical” definition of insanity. Not the most objective viewpoint I know.)
 
12-06-2002 11:13 AM, headscratcher4 writes:

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Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You should know better than to say that. The German populations had religion stripped from them and morality stripped from them over a period of several centuries. When Hitler seized power he had a loyal mob standing by and that mob was the whole of Germany.

How can people actively and freely pursue religious belief and customs when the very nation-state that they exist in forbids it?

Are Christian bibles allowed in Iran?

If you live inside a totalitarian state void of morality, are you going to say no when you are ordered to be a camp guard? Would a Christian church order you to gas Jews?

JK
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Not trying to bait you here, or insult your earlier argument regarding German's that I'll get back to at a later point...actually, I was talking about the Poles. Poles started killing Jews within hours of coming under German control...whether they did so because of Euro-anti-Semitism or to please the Germans, they did it. They still had their Bibles, their churches and their Priests -- in fact, many Jews were accused by Poles and Germans as being "communists" as a reason for murder.

Anyway, and I repeat, within Hours/days of German occupation, somePole grounded in 1000+ of catholicism, engaged in actions to assist and promote the German anti-Semetic agenda. Indeed, to this day, Poles deny it..."it was all a result of the Germans..."

My point is that the check you suggest should be there, and which wasn't deluted by hundreds of years of German atheistic philosophy (as you would have it) wasn't there. The Christian fear of god disolved. Most of the population stood by or actively helped. Indeed, in the east, as they viewed the German's as liberators from the Russians, they were more than happy to engage in Progroms -- both sponsored by the Germans and indipendently...it is, as you say, a fact.

So? When they proclaimed themselves Catholic, went to church, took part in communion and went home to houses stolen from their Jewish neighbors, were they not as "atheistic" as Hitler?

Further, what happened to the hard wiring you speak of? All of the Catholic grounding, one would have thought, would have creeated millions of martyrs, rather than a paltry couple of thousands...communities that would rather die with the Jews than live under the atheists, as it were.

No, seriously, help me out in understanding what happened to Poland's fear of god? I understand your point about Germans (though I would/will dispute your historical interpretation with you at a later time), but what about the Poles who marched their Jewish neighbors to the killing pits (see Rhode's book) in a festive mood and then went to church on Sunday. Are they not the same as Hitler? Saying onething for the community, atheist at heart?

In the end, I think it is irrelevent whether or not Hitler was an Atheist. He might well have been, but your assertions are not very convincing on the evidence, logic or facts you claim. To paraphrase John Fowles writing on Hitler in the novel the Magus...the crime wasn't that one man had the will to be and do evil, it was that millions did not have the will to say "no". Indeed, regarless of how you describe Hitler, or whether you conclude that atheism is a religion, it is in the context you set possible to argue that Hitler was the only one who had a complete faith in his God/Vision and willing to see it through to the end...the rest were just posuers.

I particulary note the church, the instrument that you have stated checked the atheistic streak in philosophy (you know, the one started by MLuther...) did little or nothing to stop it, voice moral objection, or call for the protection of the Jews (well, some, but late and after it was clear that Hitler was going to lose). In short, that institution, grounded in 2000+ years of fear of god, gave up its very basic precepts overnight.

You know, Stalin used to say "how many legions does the Pope have?" Today, they say "How many legions, just look at what John Paul brought about in Eastern Europe..." Fine, but when it counted, when 2 million jews were being trained to their death across Catholic Poland they church was silent. The partisans weren't bombing deathcamp train lines. Poles weren't en-mass civilly disobaying the Germans...they were turning in their neighbors and going to mass on Sunday.

BTW, I don't hold the Poles responsible. They are victems. It was an occupied country. The Nazis, like the Soviets, about as inhuman as can be imagined. But, they were not hard wired to fear god.

You argue for hardwiring...I argue that regardless of whether or not Hitler was an atheist, WWII and the holocaust therein is the best arguement for the absence of such....
 
On 12-06-2002 11:16 AM, Franko writes:

Was Hitler trying to be Religious or Scientific when he tried to make nuclear weapons?

How about the V2 rocket?
 
On 12-06-2002 11:35 AM, Jedi Knight writes:

quote:
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Originally posted by headscratcher4


Not trying to bait you here, or insult your earlier argument regarding German's that I'll get back to at a later point...actually, I was talking about the Poles. Poles started killing Jews within hours of coming under German control...whether they did so because of Euro-anti-Semitism or to please the Germans, they did it. They still had their Bibles, their churches and their Priests -- in fact, many Jews were accused by Poles and Germans as being "communists" as a reason for murder.

Anyway, and I repeat, within Hours/days of German occupation, somePole grounded in 1000+ of catholicism, engaged in actions to assist and promote the German anti-Semetic agenda. Indeed, to this day, Poles deny it..."it was all a result of the Germans..."

My point is that the check you suggest should be there, and which wasn't deluted by hundreds of years of German atheistic philosophy (as you would have it) wasn't there. The Christian fear of god disolved. Most of the population stood by or actively helped. Indeed, in the east, as they viewed the German's as liberators from the Russians, they were more than happy to engage in Progroms -- both sponsored by the Germans and indipendently...it is, as you say, a fact.

So? When they proclaimed themselves Catholic, went to church, took part in communion and went home to houses stolen from their Jewish neighbors, were they not as "atheistic" as Hitler?

Further, what happened to the hard wiring you speak of? All of the Catholic grounding, one would have thought, would have creeated millions of martyrs, rather than a paltry couple of thousands...communities that would rather die with the Jews than live under the atheists, as it were.

No, seriously, help me out in understanding what happened to Poland's fear of god? I understand your point about Germans (though I would/will dispute your historical interpretation with you at a later time), but what about the Poles who marched their Jewish neighbors to the killing pits (see Rhode's book) in a festive mood and then went to church on Sunday. Are they not the same as Hitler? Saying onething for the community, atheist at heart?

In the end, I think it is irrelevent whether or not Hitler was an Atheist. He might well have been, but your assertions are not very convincing on the evidence or logic. To paraphrase John Fowles in the novel the Magus...the crime wasn't that one man had the will to be and do evil, it was that millions did not have the will to say "no".

You argue for hardwiring...I argue that regardless of whether or not Hitler was an atheist, WWII and the holocaust therein is the best arguement for the absence of such....
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There are population grudges in every country that is on the fringe of revolution and the Nazi ideology seeped across the border of Poland long before the war started. Poland wasn't an isolated sphere of containment. It was a country that was under relentless pressure from the communists to the east and the fascists to the west.

Poland knew that they would be attacked. They knew it. It was the only way that Hitler could access the main avenues of approach to get into Russia. Poland was the gateway.

In any country that falls under military attack and revolution, internal populations will conflict amongst themselves over past slights, postions in the new system, etc. It is common.

Some of Hitler's favorite henchmen were native ancestoral Poles. Also, you failed to mention the majority of military Poles were killed during the initial attack and again after the communists invaded in the later stages of the war. There was no resistence.

What was the cause of all the antisemitism in that region? Germany and the German ideology of that period. What you are saying is trying to say the USA doesn't have any influence on Canada. It doesn't make any sense in reality.

The catholic church can't be blamed for the onslaught in Poland after the Nazis invaded. The only way that you can credibly blame the church is if the church had government power in the Nazi system and it had none.

That is the point that I am making. People are hard-wired to believe in God, but Nazi atheist belief made that belief unfashionable. The people in Germany and Poland weren't raising their arms saying "Sieg Heil Jesus".

The atheist state killed God in Germany and the surrounding Europeran countries long before World War II broke out. World War II was just a continuance of World War I.

Hitler was one of the most successful atheist prodigies in the history of humankind, second only to Stalin.

JK
 
On 12-06-2002 11:49 AM, headscratcher4 writes:

Have to go away for a day or two, will try to reply, if this is still a going concern. when I get back.

For the record, and again, I am not blaming Poles, or even the Catholic church. My point is different. I think it is in what I've written above (it is possible that I've lost myself in my own rheteric and bad spelling...) but I will review on my return and try to clarify further if it remains unclear....HS
 
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