Ed helps those that help themselves..........

[Boo]

aka Looting.


Watching footage tonight of the damage and destruction left by Katrina along the Gulf coast and one of the more popular topics is the looting that occured throughout New Orleans. It included film of several people calmly walking past security guards and helping themselves to anything and everything not nailed down in a WalMart.


My first thought was some people are opportunistic low lives that will use any excuse to steal what they cannot afford. Afterwhile I began to think of what I might do if everything I owned was gone, my family has little enough to begin with and now has nothing. What little money does come in won't be arriving for months, any job I might go to no longer exists and what relief that will come could be days if not weeks or months away.

If I am honest with myself, I would be out there helping myself to any food and bottled water I could find, to feed my self and my family. We would need clothes, blankets, diapers are a realistsic need and any number of other small basics we take for granted daily. Hmmm, a bicycle might make sense as a form of basic transportation.

Then I saw images of people grabbing fishing poles, ok I can understand that. What about the games, toys and other other odd items? If you were looking at weeks, possibly months before you had any steady flow of cash or means of providing for your family, would it not make sense to grab items you could barter with or sell?

Even under extreme conditions are these rationalizations an excuse to justify criminal behavior or are they valid responses to the situation?


What would you do and what point do you stop?




Boo

 

[WildCat]

They're just opportunistic thieves basically. And I've always noticed that the first things looted in riots and disasters seem to be liquor stores. YMMV

 

[webfusion]

Any stores that have useful items for survival will be empty of goods shortly, and it will be quite a while before any re-supply takes place. Over a million people are homeless, there is no fuel, no electricity, no sanitation, no road access to many parts of the South, no medical aid available, and the banking system is non-existent in wide areas.

This is a disaster of unprecedented proportions, and the taking of various merchandise without paying is the least of the issues to be worried about right now.

 

[Ziggurat]

This is a disaster of unprecedented proportions, and the taking of various merchandise without paying is the least of the issues to be worried about right now.

Actually, I don't think that's true. I think that's a first step towards the breakdown of social order and restraint. Start losing that, and much worse can happen (such as food riots, etc. which could prevent life-saving relief efforts from reaching everyone). You have to hold the line somewhere on social order, and simply letting it slip on looting is dangerous. Looting damages the social fabric, and that is a high price to pay in dangerous times, even if the goods being looted are of little value.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

They're just opportunistic thieves basically. And I've always noticed that the first things looted in riots and disasters seem to be liquor stores. YMMV

Yes, and I saw hungry looters on TV this morning who apparently were planning on eating television sets.

Shoot them on sight. Problem solved.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Yes, and I saw hungry looters on TV this morning who apparently were planning on eating television sets.

Shoot them on sight. Problem solved.

I don't agree with the shoot them part, but otherwise, a good point. One way to distinguish between common thieves and people in need is: Look at what they took.

TV, liquor, other resellable commodities: Thief

Water, canned beef, blankets, etc.: In need.

Still, technically, both are thieves.

Hans

 

[Santa666]

This is definitely not a black and white situation. Obviously, people are not going to be eating TVs and jewelry and other such objects, however, the need for food and water cannot be ignored. It is easy to talk about the detriment to social fabric when you are not stranded in several feet of water in your own home with no means of communication and running out of food. Should those going hungry just wait around and hope for a rescue? Maybe they should. If I were cut off from the outside world and my family was low on food, I would not hesitate to run down to the local store and help myself. Selfish? Very much so. Wrong? I don't think I would care. Detrimental to society? I would rather remain a part of society first. There is a very fine line to be drawn here, but providing for family and those in need should be the top priority. Electronics, jewelry, firearms, liquor; do these items cross the line between neccessity and desire? I say yes. What about clothes? What about camping supplies? Do these cross that line? I guess that depends. Right now, on the gulf coast, the rules have changed. I do not support mass looting just for the sake of profit or destruction, but you cannot condemn those to just want to survive.


Wishing I wasn't myth so I could help,

Santa

 

[BPSCG]

I notice that the people who are looting are able to be there to loot only because they refused to obey the mandatory evacuation order. If they had obeyed the order, they would not be in a position to loot, and would not be finding it necessary.

The breakdown of society did not begin with the looting. It began when people decided that a mandatory evacuation order did not apply to them (they evidently thought the laws of nature didn't apply to them either). Having refused to comply with a reasonable, prudent order that was necessary for the public safety, they now find themselves in a position where they must survive by causing further property loss.

I have exactly as much sympathy for them as I do for a drunk driver who wrecks his car and breaks his leg.

I think anyone found walking around in the mandatory evacuation zone should be arrested just for being there. "What part of 'mandatory' did you not understand?" And anyone plucked off the roof of his house should be sent a bill for the cost of the helicopter or boat rescue.

 

[Santa666]

I notice that the people who are looting are able to be there to loot only because they refused to obey the mandatory evacuation order. If they had obeyed the order, they would not be in a position to loot, and would not be finding it necessary.

The breakdown of society did not begin with the looting. It began when people decided that a mandatory evacuation order did not apply to them (they evidently thought the laws of nature didn't apply to them either). Having refused to comply with a reasonable, prudent order that was necessary for the public safety, they now find themselves in a position where they must survive by causing further property loss.

I have exactly as much sympathy for them as I do for a drunk driver who wrecks his car and breaks his leg.

I think anyone found walking around in the mandatory evacuation zone should be arrested just for being there. "What part of 'mandatory' did you not understand?" And anyone plucked off the roof of his house should be sent a bill for the cost of the helicopter or boat rescue.

I will not try to speak for the people of New Orleans, but I have to surmise there were people who did not have the means readily available or find out about a "mandatory" evacuation until the last minute and decided to try to weather the storm at home. While I certainly do not condone the behaviour or looters in that city, I was simply pointing out that some of these "looters" are only doing so with survival on their minds. What would you say about those at the superdome? They were "evacuated" there for safety and they are trapped in a place where garbage is overflowing, there no AC, no bathrooms, no food, no water and no currently effective means of rescue. Would you also compare someone who decided not continue that existence with a drunk driver if they decided to out and try to find food for themselves or their loved ones? It is very easy to sit on a high horse and inform those not riding so high that they should have been more informed, or better prepared, and just sit back wait for someone to come get you. Put yourself in the shoes of one of those people who could not leave the city, imagine what they are going through, pretend for a moment what it must be like being trapped in your own home.

On a side note, I agree 100% regarding those looting for non-survival reasons. They should be arrested/shot, whatever it takes to put an end to it. I know my position is walking a very thin line, but I will stand behind it. As stated before, none of the looting is right, but I am willing to side with those who simply wish to live.


Santa

 

[BPSCG]

I will not try to speak for the people of New Orleans, but I have to surmise there were people who did not have the means readily available

Yeah. They couldn't walk to the Superdome in dry weather, but they could carry a TV through knee-deep water. I'll cut some slack for people who were physically unable to move. But as for the rest: I'll bet if last Saturday, someone had literally held a gun to their heads and told them, "Get out or die", they somehow would have found a way.

or find out about a "mandatory" evacuation until the last minute

Okay, I'll also cut some slack for the people who had been unconscious for a week.

I was simply pointing out that some of these "looters" are only doing so with survival on their minds.

And what was on their minds last Saturday when they decided to stay? Suicide? "Oh, we're going to ride it out," like a hurricane is some sort of gigantic amusement park ride.

What would you say about those at the superdome? They were "evacuated" there for safety and they are trapped in a place where garbage is overflowing, there no AC, no bathrooms, no food, no water and no currently effective means of rescue.

Let me know as soon as one of them drowns. I predict they'll all be out before long.

Would you also compare someone who decided not continue that existence with a drunk driver if they decided to out

Moot point. They aren't being allowed out.

It is very easy to sit on a high horse and inform those not riding so high that they should have been more informed,

Excuse me, but this wasn't a case of being informed about a new federal regulation regarding the discharging of a firearm on US government property or being informed about a new tax regulation regarding the treatment of inherited real estate in a country that has no tax treaty with the US. This was a case of being informed about something your pet dog knew about, that the stones in the street knew about. Don't tell me the dozens of photos you've seen of people being plucked off their roofs are accompanied by captions saying "Delbert Bumpass being rescued from his home in flood-ravaged New Orleans. When rescued, Mr. Bumpass asked in shock and awe, 'What happened? I never heard nothing about no hurricane...'"

or better prepared, and just sit back wait for someone to come get you.

Correction: Wiat for someone to risk his own life to come and get you.

Put yourself in the shoes of one of those people who could not leave the city,

Could not? As I said, I'll cut some slack for the crippled and the paralyzed, the lame and the halt. As for the rest, I use the .38-Special-to-the-temple test (see above).

imagine what they are going through, pretend for a moment what it must be like being trapped in your own home.

Imagine what it must be like to not have the sense that God gave to a bucket of gravel.

 

[Neutiquam Erro]

Many of us have irrational attachments to our homes. As our primary shelter, we associate it with our personal safety and security. Quite often, it is the emotional center of our lives. Almost always, it represents the bulk of whatever material possessions we've managed to accumulate.

Speaking only for myself, I would be extremely reluctant to crawl out of my cave -- my habitual refuge -- even in the face of catastrophe, although I would certainly make arrangements for my family to be elsewhere.

So, many of us are irrational. Many of us are simply stupid. Many of us are unable to grasp that which is blindingly obvious to someone sitting thousands of miles away.

Imagine what it must be like to not have the sense that God gave to a bucket of gravel.

I consider myself fortunate that I can imagine such a thing.

 

[Santa666]

Yeah. They couldn't walk to the Superdome in dry weather, but they could carry a TV through knee-deep water. I'll cut some slack for people who were physically unable to move. But as for the rest: I'll bet if last Saturday, someone had literally held a gun to their heads and told them, "Get out or die", they somehow would have found a way.
Okay, I'll also cut some slack for the people who had been unconscious for a week.
And what was on their minds last Saturday when they decided to stay? Suicide? "Oh, we're going to ride it out," like a hurricane is some sort of gigantic amusement park ride.
Let me know as soon as one of them drowns. I predict they'll all be out before long.
Moot point. They aren't being allowed out.
Excuse me, but this wasn't a case of being informed about a new federal regulation regarding the discharging of a firearm on US government property or being informed about a new tax regulation regarding the treatment of inherited real estate in a country that has no tax treaty with the US. This was a case of being informed about something your pet dog knew about, that the stones in the street knew about. Don't tell me the dozens of photos you've seen of people being plucked off their roofs are accompanied by captions saying "Delbert Bumpass being rescued from his home in flood-ravaged New Orleans. When rescued, Mr. Bumpass asked in shock and awe, 'What happened? I never heard nothing about no hurricane...'"
Correction: Wiat for someone to risk his own life to come and get you.
Could not? As I said, I'll cut some slack for the crippled and the paralyzed, the lame and the halt. As for the rest, I use the .38-Special-to-the-temple test (see above).
Imagine what it must be like to not have the sense that God gave to a bucket of gravel.

Let me just respond in general here. You are putting some extreme examples out there and then ASSUMING that they are what I mean. I am not defending those who are looting electronics or jewelry or liquor or other similar products. I am defending those who are looting for food or blankets or clothes for survival. The people of New Orleans have been through a lot of bad weather, including lesser hurricanes. It is logical to reason that some underestimated Katrina. There are people who do not keep up with the news and current events, and those people, while still likely aware of an approaching hurricane, may not have realized what kind storm was coming. I am not talking about the brain dead, the utterly stupid, or even the paralyzed or crippled. I am talking about intelligent, hard working people whose entire livelihood is bundled into the four walls and a roof they call home. People who, for any number of reasons, believed things would be ok, just let the hurricane come, drop some water and watch it go. It has happened before, surely it would happen again, right? Obviously they were wrong, but now you are suggested these people deserved what happened to them. That is very callous.


Santa

 

[BPSCG]

I am not defending those who are looting electronics or jewelry or liquor or other similar products.

I understand that.

I am defending those who are looting for food or blankets or clothes for survival.

I understand that, too. I disagree with it, but I understand your position.

There are people who do not keep up with the news and current events,

I find it impossible to believe there were significant numbers of people who were not aware of what was coming. These would have to be people who had no contact with the outside world. People who did not watch TV and who had nothing to do with their neighbors. I don't doubt there are such people, but when you hear of hundreds of people on their roofs or in their attics, you have to conclude that the vast majority of them decided they were smarter than all those fools who were leaving town. Yesterday I posted a quote from a guy on his cell phone calling for help. Are you going to tell me a guy with a cell phone was so detached from society that he had no idea what was coming? I posted another quote from a woman crying that she had three children inside. If she was so concerned about her children, why did she not decide to err on the side of caution, and evacuate?

and those people, while still likely aware of an approaching hurricane, may not have realized what kind storm was coming.

They were told. Repeatedly. Do you think there was any other topic of conversation all along the Gulf Coast last week? But again, they knew better. And now they want everyone else to risk their own lives to get them out of the fix they got themselves into.

I am not talking about the brain dead, the utterly stupid, or even the paralyzed or crippled.

Neither am I.

I am talking about intelligent, hard working people whose entire livelihood is bundled into the four walls and a roof they call home.

If they don't have the sense to leave town when they're told, "A killer hurricane is on its way - get out!!!", then there's a big, gaping hole in their intelligence.

Obviously they were wrong, but now you are suggested these people deserved what happened to them. That is very callous.

Hey, I'm not the one whose sig line proposes setting people on fire...

 

[Jocko]

Let me just respond in general here. You are putting some extreme examples out there and then ASSUMING that they are what I mean. I am not defending those who are looting electronics or jewelry or liquor or other similar products. I am defending those who are looting for food or blankets or clothes for survival.

I don't know anyone here who would condemn someone for stealing a necessity of life, but since it's only been two days, I think it's a safe bet that most looters are NOT starving yet, nor are they freezing in a Louisiana August. Blankets? Come on... BPSCG is right, these are 99.9% criminals.

The people of New Orleans have been through a lot of bad weather, including lesser hurricanes. It is logical to reason that some underestimated Katrina.

No kidding!

There are people who do not keep up with the news and current events, and those people, while still likely aware of an approaching hurricane, may not have realized what kind storm was coming.

Please, you're asking me to suspend a hundred tons of disbelief here. I've lived in the south for years and, while I don't think anyone will confuse Louisiana with the Harvard debate society, Hurricanes are a constant threat in N.O.... so much so that the city's signature drink is named after them, and "Hurricane Parties" are a staple of young culture. If anyone should have reaslized a cat 4 or cat 5 storm was trouble, it was them.

They are highly conscious of the hurricane threat. What you're suggesting is the equvalent of excusing a longtime resident of Buffalo, NY, being shocked by all that white stuff covering his car in January. A minimal amount of accountability is expected.

I am not talking about the brain dead, the utterly stupid, or even the paralyzed or crippled. I am talking about intelligent, hard working people whose entire livelihood is bundled into the four walls and a roof they call home. People who, for any number of reasons, believed things would be ok, just let the hurricane come, drop some water and watch it go. It has happened before, surely it would happen again, right? Obviously they were wrong, but now you are suggested these people deserved what happened to them. That is very callous.

What's callous is draining public treasure by requiring an airlift off one's own roof after ignoring a mandatory... MANDATORY! .. evacuation order. What's callous is putting one's family in harm's way to prove some kind of machismo. What's callous is waiting out the storm with the intention of ripping off everything not nailed down, even if you have to wade through the bodies of your fellow citizens to do it.

Callous, indeed. I would ask you to reconsider the direction of your contempt.

 

[Santa666]

I find it impossible to believe there were significant numbers of people who were not aware of what was coming. These would have to be people who had no contact with the outside world. People who did not watch TV and who had nothing to do with their neighbors. I don't doubt there are such people, but when you hear of hundreds of people on their roofs or in their attics, you have to conclude that the vast majority of them decided they were smarter than all those fools who were leaving town. Yesterday I posted a quote from a guy on his cell phone calling for help. Are you going to tell me a guy with a cell phone was so detached from society that he had no idea what was coming? I posted another quote from a woman crying that she had three children inside. If she was so concerned about her children, why did she not decide to err on the side of caution, and evacuate?

Here is where we kinda disagree, though it's more of a definition issue. I do not claim there were any people who were ignornant of Katrina. What I am proposing is that many, many people underestimated the hurricane. New Orleans has seen its fair share of rough tropical weather. A hurricane or similar storm is not anything new to its residents and many people easily could have ignored the "dire" warnings (perhaps even believe the media to be exaggerating) and wait the storm out. Are those people "stupid" for ignoring the warnings? Maybe. Maybe not. There have been overstated warnings in the past, perhaps not of the "You need to evacuate the city" variety, but warnings none-the-less. Should people, especially those with kids, have take the cautious way out? Yes, I believe they should, but they also should not be scorned for their decision.

Hey, I'm not the one whose sig line proposes setting people on fire...

I am the EVIL Santa.

 

[BPSCG]

And another thing.

How much of the federal disaster relief - more properly called "taxpayer-funded relief" - will go to rebuild the houses of people living in a flood zone who had no flood insurance, and the houses demolished by the winds that were owned by people with no insurance at all?

 

[Santa666]

I don't know anyone here who would condemn someone for stealing a necessity of life, but since it's only been two days, I think it's a safe bet that most looters are NOT starving yet, nor are they freezing in a Louisiana August. Blankets? Come on... BPSCG is right, these are 99.9% criminals.



No kidding!



Please, you're asking me to suspend a hundred tons of disbelief here. I've lived in the south for years and, while I don't think anyone will confuse Louisiana with the Harvard debate society, Hurricanes are a constant threat in N.O.... so much so that the city's signature drink is named after them, and "Hurricane Parties" are a staple of young culture. If anyone should have reaslized a cat 4 or cat 5 storm was trouble, it was them.

They are highly conscious of the hurricane threat. What you're suggesting is the equvalent of excusing a longtime resident of Buffalo, NY, being shocked by all that white stuff covering his car in January. A minimal amount of accountability is expected.



What's callous is draining public treasure by requiring an airlift off one's own roof after ignoring a mandatory... MANDATORY! .. evacuation order. What's callous is putting one's family in harm's way to prove some kind of machismo. What's callous is waiting out the storm with the intention of ripping off everything not nailed down, even if you have to wade through the bodies of your fellow citizens to do it.

Callous, indeed. I would ask you to reconsider the direction of your contempt.

I did not think I was being comtemptuous and apologize if I came across in that fashion. I do believe most looters are just criminals, and that I am defending a very small percentage of those who stayed behind. Are you telling me with that the constant threat of harsh weather, people do not become desensitized to weather warnings. Using your Buffalo example, they get A LOT of snow. Blizzard warnings are not a surprise to them, even severe blizzard warnings. It is quite reasonable to believe that the residence, perhaps many residence, of Buffalo who believe they could handle just about any blizzard. This same line of thinking could easily be followed by some is New Orleans regarding a hurricane. I just do not think it is so cut and dry regarding what some of these people were thinking when they decided not to evacuate.

On another note. Regarding the MANDATORY EVACUATION...many thousands of people are being housed in the Superdome, a large percentage of which were taken in BEFORE the hurricane hit. I have to believe an evacuation of the city does not entail sheltering in a large dome near its center. It appears that the Superdome was put into use for those who could/would not leave, and for survivors. Now, if you could/would not leave and you did not wish to travel to the Superdome, you may believe you can handle the storm at home.

Most of this is of course only the opinion of a fat, jolly, old man who hangs out with elves and is subject to being way off base. My mind is open and always willing to see another point of view, should your argument be persuasive enough (or if you have enough milk and cookes, that works too).

Santa

 

[Jocko]

On another note. Regarding the MANDATORY EVACUATION...many thousands of people are being housed in the Superdome, a large percentage of which were taken in BEFORE the hurricane hit. I have to believe an evacuation of the city does not entail sheltering in a large dome near its center. It appears that the Superdome was put into use for those who could/would not leave, and for survivors. Now, if you could/would not leave and you did not wish to travel to the Superdome, you may believe you can handle the storm at home.

Well, the complete breakdown of order/supplies/hygiene at the Superdome seems to indicate a general lack of planning from the get-go. It was an ad-hoc move to accommodate the ad-hoc idiots who thought everything was fine.

I have little sympathy for anyone who had the means to leave, which is probably just south of 100% of them. Taking extraordinary measures to protect idiots from fatal exercises of their idiocy only assures another generation of idiots. Giving them sympathy on top of that only assures their continued smugness and sense of entitlement.

I was in Alabama for the last gasp of Andrew back in '92. It rained UP. That was barely a cat 1 by that time, and I've had the brains to respect hurricanes since, as well as to accept their unpredictability of direction and intensity. And I wasn't even native to the area!