Merged [Ed] Convicted Lockerbie bomber released

Well the point Architect was apparently trying to make is that the "incompetent", as you put it, shooting down of an airliner is somehow relevant to the Lockerbie case, where the convicted killer deliberately blew up an airliner..
Do you agree with this analysis?
 
scissorhands said:
Well the point Architect was apparently trying to make is that the "incompetent", as you put it, shooting down of an airliner is somehow relevant to the Lockerbie case, where the convicted killer deliberately blew up an airliner..
Do you agree with this analysis?
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I see one as an act of omission the other of commission.

I have always been inclined to the view that it is possible they are linked. Perhaps one day the details will emerge - they probably exist in one Governmental archive or another.
 
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scissorhands said:
The director of the FBI who spent a large amount of time on the case, begs to differ.

Again, the stated reasons for his release has absolutely nothing to do with the safety of his conviction.
You can try to blur the two issues as much as you wish, but the fact stands.
I predicted a SNP rearguard action yesterday, and just look at you all trotting out to defend the indefensible.
Laughable.
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Director of the FBI. One man. On the other hand, the Scottish courts give him leave to appeal, underscoring the risk that it may be an unsafe conviction.

Really, have you read any detailed papers around the case?
 
Architect said:
Firstly, you really need to try the whole apostrophe and grammar thing. You'll find it helps those who read your posts.

Now, turning back to the matter at hand, you have derided the compassion decision solely on the grounds that the man is a convincted murderer. His criminal sentence is, of course, a matter of fact. What you then do is pop your fingers in your ears and go "LAH LAH LAH LAH LAH" whenever it's pointed out that there appears to be reasonable doubt as to his guilt. He has been granted leave to appeal. Senior legal figures consider his conviction unsafe.

Against this background, Scottish Ministers - and I suspect that bit really annoys you - decided to grant compassionate release. The man will be dead in weeks. He's not going to be in prison anyway at the end, he's going to be in Glasgow Royal Infirmary or perhaps the Gartnavel. Controversial - yes. Daming indictment of the Scottish Govermnet - no.

You then completely ignore the fact that the original transfer treaty was actually set up by Labour, in London, under the auspices of Tony B. In fact, the Scottish Government has held off anything for months.

But best of all, you can't even provide a balanced view of the situation. BBC story quoting US cricticism - shout about it loudly. BBC story highlighting possible innocence of Magrahi - ignore it.
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Let me just emphasise the bits you ignored.
 
scissorhands said:
Are you a paid up member of the SNP, Architect?
Just wondering.



And I guess he doesnt speak for the thousands of investigators in the FBI?

Oh yeah, you would rather listen to Jim Swire, what position did he hold in the investigation by the way?
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Thought we had already agreed we weren't listening to any of the relatives.

He was released on compassionate grounds as per normal in the Scottish legal system. People might not like our legal system and they are free to say so but it doesn't alter the fact that the decision was neither unusual nor uncommon. If an exception had been made then the current Justice Secretary would have got just as much grief for bowing to political pressure outside of our legal and political framework. That pretty much is the long and short of it. All the rest is pure speculation mostly by those who would criticise Salmond's choice of morning tea if they thought it would give them a benefit.

I am a member of no political party btw and doubt I ever will be. I have voted for most parties in my life (well not the BNP or UKIP) and tend to go where I think the least damage. I think I will vote SNP next year as a bulwark against Cameron but I voted Lib Dem the previous elections and Labour back in 97.

Edit: I might have voted Labour in 01 too - the elections are all beginning to merge and by not sticking with one party I lose track
 
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He was released on compassionate grounds as per normal in the Scottish legal system. People might not like our legal system and they are free to say so but it doesn't alter the fact that the decision was neither unusual nor uncommon.
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I think that releasing a convicted mass murderer and terrorist on compassionate grounds is far from usual.

Others have asked for a precedent for this in Scotland, Ive yet to see one that is comparable.

I am a member of no political party btw and doubt I ever will be.
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Then at least we can share common ground on that.
 
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scissorhands said:
The director of the FBI who spent a large amount of time on the case, begs to differ.
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Is this the guy who is under the impression - after spending "a large amount of time on the case" - that Megrahi was convicted by a jury?
 
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scissorhands said:
I think that releasing a convicted mass murderer and terrorist on compassionate grounds is far from usual.

Others have asked for a precedent for this in Scotland, Ive yet to see one that is comparable.



Then at least we can share common ground on that.
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Funnily enough we haven't had many mass murdering terrorists dying of a terminal cancer in our prisons. All that can be pointed to is that when a prisoner is dying and in their last three or four months of life they are invariably freed unless criminally insane and a danger to themselves and others. Megrahi is not insane and not a danger to anyone. In which case he falls into the camp that is freed. I fully understand that those who do not have this facility might struggle to comprehend but then most countries have legal aspects that are difficult to comprehend. It isn't a slight, it isn't politicking and if there is a trade element or issues over appeals and information that might be unearthed then those do not fall at Edinburgh's door.

Westminster has been strangely quiet and (almost) supportive.
 
I forgot this bit.

scissorhands said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...bs-Alex-Salmonds-Robert-Burns-invitation.html

I think this explains a lot.
The little toadface Salmond is still angry at Obama for snubbing him.

In same article...

Well hes finally got himself in the limelight, hasnt he?
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And his source for this?

The Daily Torygraph!

:dl:

The paper that hates the very idea of Scottish Nationalism even more than scissorhands himself does. The paper that would spin a shower of rain to Salmond's discredit!

Though this is pretty blatant spin, even for them. And the attempted corollary is nearly as good as the assertion from the spring that the British press allegedly "skewering Obama" for using an autocue was revenge for Obama sending back a bust of Churchill that had been in the White House. (That one's probably still a couple of laughing dogs ahead though, I have to say.)

BTW, just watching the Prom performance of Fidelio. Megrahi sure ain't Florestan, but it's quite uplifting nevertheless.

Rolfe.
 
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Funnily enough we haven't had many mass murdering terrorists dying of a terminal cancer in our prisons.
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So when the situation cropped up, it was thought best to treat him the same way as any old murderer?
Or do you think that some discretion might have come into play?
I mean its not as if it wasnt fairly obvious that he would be sent home as a hero to Libya.
Encouraging lots of future terrorists to boot.
 
Rolfe said:
I forgot this bit.




And his source for this?

The Daily Torygraph!

:dl:

The paper that hates the very idea of Scottish Nationalism even more than scissorhands himself does. The paper that would spin a shower of rain to Salmond's discredit!

Though this is pretty blatant spin, even fot them.

BTW, just watching the Prom performance of Fidelio. Megrahi sure ain't Florestan, but it's quite uplifting nevertheless.

Rolfe.
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You have some evidence that Salmond wasnt snubbed by Obama?
Or that more than 21 countries bothered replying to him after his letter writing fest?

I will wait while you post it.
 
scissorhands said:
So when the situation cropped up, it was thought best to treat him the same way as any old murderer?
Or do you think that some discretion might have come into play?
I mean its not as if it wasnt fairly obvious that he would be sent home as a hero to Libya.
Encouraging lots of future terrorists to boot.
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The word "forgiveness" got left out of your vocabulary, didn't it?

Rolfe.
 
scissorhands said:
So when the situation cropped up, it was thought best to treat him the same way as any old murderer?
Or do you think that some discretion might have come into play?
I mean its not as if it wasnt fairly obvious that he would be sent home as a hero to Libya.
Encouraging lots of future terrorists to boot.
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In short you wanted us to create an exception. That is fair enough but legal precedents tend to be treated with barge poles by lawyers like MacAskill. It was unlikely to happen.

I really don't expect to Scotland to be inundated with masses of terrorists. I really don't. That is just mad talk.

The main problem in all this is that many people, especially in America, simply do not understand the Scottish justice system. There is no reason why they should but to paint it as some diabolical act of anti-Americanism is bizarre and in some cases just plain twisted. Was MacAskill's speech in any way whatsoever anti-American? How many commenting even bothered actually listening to it?

Megrahi will be dead in a few months and then it will be over. There are a lot of other problems in the world. Some hawks in the US have gone on a anti-Scottish binge but they are quite happy for Scottish and UK soldiers to fight and die in Afghanistan. They might take a look around - we are the best friends they have. FFS! Scotland is one of the few countries in the world where people will proudly admit to owning Country and Western records. We do things differently that is all.
 
I really don't expect to Scotland to be inundated with masses of terrorists. I really don't. That is just mad talk.
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Yes it is.
And its something you just made up, apparently as if that was what I was suggesting.

The main problem in all this is that many people, especially in America, simply do not understand the Scottish justice system.
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I think its fairly well understood, its the lack of any sense of regard for the victims involved and the wilfull lack of regard to the consequences of releasing this convicted mass murderer that really clinches it.
If there is such a thing as discretion within the legal process, it really should have been used here.
I can only hope that Scotlands reputation isnt too badly damaged by this.
 
scissorhands said:
Yes it is.
And its something you just made up, apparently as if that was what I was suggesting.



I think its fairly well understood, its the lack of any sense of regard for the victims involved and the wilfull lack of regard to the consequences of releasing this convicted mass murderer that really clinches it.
If there is such a thing as discretion within the legal process, it really should have been used here.
I can only hope that Scotlands reputation isnt too badly damaged by this.
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But how can it encourage other terrorists then. This is a feature of the Scottish legal system. It isn't going to happen if you commit a crime in another country. Also it requires one to acquire a terminal illness. I can't see the attraction myself.

Furthermore, most current terrorists are of the suicide ilk. Prison and release is a bit academic for them. They are not going to be encouraged or dissuaded by legal processes.

If people want to think ill of Scotland for this then they were 90% of the way there already. Looking over on the Guardian board some of the main anti-Scottish ranters are the ones that have poured hate out in every thread on Scottish issues since I have been there. Their opinions are utterly, laughably predictable and easy to ignore. I think those that are friends of Scotland will stick with us - even those who do not agree with our justice system.

On a separate matter, once Megrahi is dead then what? I suspect the matter will be closed and that would be an injustice.
 
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scissorhands said:
You just released a convicted terrorist back to his home country amid scenes of jubilation.

Gaddafi is laughing at you.

Job done.
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Gadaffi is our best mate now. Lots of political leaders have pressed flesh with him.

If that had been a visit by somebody important the press would have gone on about the tiny crowd. The man had family and friends, he was bound to be greeted home. I can't get too wound up about the flag thing either. In that part of the world if they wave your flag it is friendly if they burn it they are pissed off. It might have been tasteless and tacky to our eyes but I do not think it there was ill intent on the Libyan part.

Terrorist Libya is in the past and Gadaffi doesn't like Islamic fundamentalists - this is good.
 
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