The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2001
- Messages
- 53,097
My spidey sense is tingling. I think we are about to have a hissy fit.
Do I get the million?
Do I get the million?
roger
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- May 22, 2002
- Messages
- 11,466
No, I didn't learn anything from the pencil. The pencil is not Brazilian rosewood, it is not elephant tusks, etc. I'm just talking about what is happening in the world. Species are being hunted to extinction for bush meat, for panelling in executive offices, etc. Some groups take an enlightened self interest and moderate consumption, as you note. In that case, I agree, government should keep well away.shanek said:
But it's simply fact that not everyone is doing that. A parable about a pencil does not change that fact.
Okay, I really am gone now. Let me know when you present a lecture at a GAL convention of sustainable instruments woods, or otherwise get published among a company of peers, and I'll be all ears. Until then, I'm going to pay attention to the experts in the field, not the googlers.
But, but, what about my point?
A bud of mine who worked for a "major food manufacturer" (since promoted
) was called upon to testify in the UK when the bloody Brits sensed something amiss. Nothing ever happened, as far as I know. It easy to snow people. Unfortunately.
It is also very well known within the food industry. In fact pricing strategies were based specifically on this.
I started working in the whoreho...uh, marketing in '76, it 'twas. It was the case then. And it sure as hell was the case a few years ago. These "market forces", need a while to gestate, do they?
You know, this is a bit like discussing something with Ian. Theory with him trumps data every time.
A bud of mine who worked for a "major food manufacturer" (since promoted
) was called upon to testify in the UK when the bloody Brits sensed something amiss. Nothing ever happened, as far as I know. It easy to snow people. Unfortunately.It is also very well known within the food industry. In fact pricing strategies were based specifically on this.
I started working in the whoreho...uh, marketing in '76, it 'twas. It was the case then. And it sure as hell was the case a few years ago. These "market forces", need a while to gestate, do they?
You know, this is a bit like discussing something with Ian. Theory with him trumps data every time.
digitalmcq
Scholar
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
- Messages
- 77
shanek said:
I'm curious as to what your evidence is to support this. In a completely free market with perfect competition (ie. few barriers to entry, many firms) collusion would be effectively curtailed as you could never get all firms on board with whatever it is that you're trying to do. However, in firms with minimal competition and many barriers to entry (ex. any industry that requires a large 'economy of scale' where small firms cannot survive) it is very possible for collusion to undermine 'market forces.' This can happen without govt intervention and typically requires govt intervention to prevent.
digitalmcq
Scholar
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
- Messages
- 77
shanek said:
This is only true to a limited extent. Let me give you the example of Haiti. Haiti was once heavily forrested but has since lost most of its forests due to world demand for lumber. The govt didn't effectively regulate the market and the trees were not cut down in a way that would allow the regeneration of the forests. Now, Haiti has lost this natural resource and has suffered for it. Put aside the fact that they can no longer sell lumber - Haiti now experiences massive mudslides (as in the last hurricane) that kill many many people. Also, there is nothing preventing massive soil erosion.
This is a clear example of a market failure that could have been prevented through proper planning.
digitalmcq
Scholar
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
- Messages
- 77
shanek said:
I'd just like to point out that this is not an example of the success of the free market - this is an example of the success of the division of labor. They are not the same thing.
digitalmcq said:
My point exactly. While Mrs. Larson's Broderbred is a really nifty product she likely cannot afford the slotting allowences that it takes (read 'payoff') to get her product on the shelves at major retailers. That being the case, she will always be, alas, a high priced local alternative to the major brands. Unless, of course, she is acquired. Then Mrs. Larson's Broderbred becomes Mrs. Larson's Danish Original Broderbred in no fat, lowered fat, hi fat, and "natural' varieties, all made in China and all carefully scripted as to distribution and price. What happens when the players literally buy the "market forces"?
For reference, here are the brands owned by my good friends at Kraft. The only market forces that they give a rat's ass about are demographic trends. Though, given their parent is PM, I suspect that they a re working on that angle too.
Kraft Foods North America Brands
Beverages Cheese
Coffee
· General Foods
International Coffees
· Gevalia
· Maxim
· Maxwell House
· Sanka
· Starbucks*
· Yuban
Frozen Treats
· Kool-Aid Slushies
Powdered Soft Drinks
· Country Time
· Crystal Light
· Kool-Aid
· Tang
Ready-to-Drink
· Capri Sun*
· Country Time
· Crystal Light
· Kool-Aid Bursts
Convenient Meals
Bacon
· Oscar Mayer
· Louis Rich
Cold Cuts
· Oscar Mayer
· Louis Rich
Dinner Kits
· Taco Bell*
Frozen Pizza
· California Pizza Kitchen*
· DiGiorno
· Jack's
· Tombstone
Hot Dogs
· Oscar Mayer
Lunch Combinations
· Lunchables
Macaroni & Cheese Dinner
· It's Pasta Anytime
· Kraft
· Kraft Easy Mac
· Velveeta
Meat Alternatives
· Boca
Meat Snacks
· Tombstone
Pastas and Sauces
· DiGiorno
Snacks
Cookies
· Barnum's Animals
· Biscos
· Café Crème
· Cameo
· Chips Ahoy!
· Crispin (Puerto Rico only)
· Dad's
· Danish (Puerto Rico only)
· Famous Chocolate Wafers
· Family Favorites
· Old Fashioned
· Ginger Snaps
· Hony Bran (Puerto Rico only)
· Konitos (Puerto Rico only)
· Lorna Doone
· Mallomars
· Marshmallow Twirls
· Nabisco (Puerto Rico only)
· National Arrowroot
· Newtons
· Nilla
· Nutter Butter
· Oreo
· Peak Freans
· Pecan Passion
· Pecanz
· Pinwheels
· SnackWell's
· Social Tea
· Stella D'oro
· Sweetie Pie (Puerto Rico only)
· Teddy Grahams
· Wild Thornberry's*
Crackers
· Air Crisps
· Better Cheddars
· Cheese Nips
· Club Social (Puerto Rico only)
· Crown Pilot
· Doo Dad
· Flavor Crisps
· Harvest Crisps
· Honey Maid
· Nabisco Grahams
· Nabs
· Premium
· Ritz
· Royal Lunch
· SnackWell's
· Stoned Wheat Thins
· Sportz (Puerto Rico only)
· Sultana (Puerto Rico only)
· Triscuit
· Uneeda
· Waverly
· Wheatsworth
· Wheat Thins
· Zwieback
Ice Cream Cones
· Comet Cups
Packaged Food Combinations
· Handi-Snacks
· Lunchables
Refrigerated Ready-to-Eat Desserts
· Jell-O
· Handi-Snacks
Snack Nuts
· Corn Nuts
· PB Crisps
· Planters
Sugar Confectionery
· Altoids
· Callard & Bowser
· CremeSavers Hard Candy
· CremeSavers Soft Candy
· Jet-Puffed
· Kraft Caramels
· Life Savers
· Milka L'il Scoops
· Nabisco Fun Fruits
· Terry's
· Toblerone
· Trolli
Cold Pack Cheese
· Woody's
Cottage Cheese
· Breakstone's
· Knudsen
· Light n' Lively
Cream Cheese
· Philadelphia
· Temp-tee
Grated Cheese
· Kraft
Natural Cheese
· Athenos
· Churny
· Cracker Barrel
· DiGiorno
· Handi-Snacks
· Harvest Moon
· Hoffman's
· Kraft
· Polly-O
Process Cheese Loaves
· Kraft Deluxe
· Old English
· Velveeta
Process Cheese Sauce
· Cheez Whiz
Process Cheese Slices
· Kraft Deli Deluxe
· Kraft Free Singles
· Kraft Singles
· Kraft 2% Milk Singles
· Velveeta
Process Cheese Spread
· Easy Cheese
Grocery
Baking Chocolate/Coconut
· Baker's
Baking Powder
· Calumet
Barbecue Sauce
· Bull's-Eye
· Kraft
Breakfast Beverage
· Postum
Coating Mix
· Shake ‘n Bake
· Oven Fry
Condiments
· Grey Poupon
· Kraft
· Sauceworks
Cooked Cereal
· Cream of Wheat
Cereal Bars
· Nabisco
Dips
· Kraft
Dog Biscuits
· Milk-Bone
Dry Packaged Desserts
· Dream Whip
· D-Zerta
· Jell-O
· Knox Gelatine
· Minute
Energy Bars
· Balance
Fruit Preservatives
· Ever Fresh
Frozen Whipped Topping
· Cool Whip
Ice Cream Topping
· Kraft
Margarine
· Parkay (Puerto Rico only)
Pasta Salads
· Kraft
Pectins
· Certo
· Sure-Jell
Pickles/Sauerkraut
· Claussen
Pie Crusts
· Honey Maid
· Nilla
· Oreo
Ready-to-Eat Cereals
· Post
· Alpha-Bits
· Banana Nut Crunch
· Blueberry Morning
· Cinna-Cluster Raisin Bran
· Cranberry Almond Crunch
· Frosted Shredded Wheat
· Fruit & Fibre
· Golden Crisp
· Grape-Nuts
· Great Grains
· Honey Bunches of Oats
· Honeycomb
· Nabisco (Puerto Rico only)
· Natural Bran Flakes
· Oreo O's
· Pebbles*
· Raisin Bran
· Shredded Wheat
· Shredded Wheat ‘n Bran
· Spoon Size Shredded Wheat
· Toasties
· Waffle Crisp
· 100% Bran
Rice
· Minute
Salad Dressings
· Good Seasons
· Kraft
· Seven Seas
Sour Cream
· Breakstone's
· Knudsen
Spoonable Dressing
· Kraft Mayo
· Miracle Whip
Steak Sauce, Marinade, Worcestershire
· A. 1.
Stuffing Mix
· Stove Top
Toaster Pastries
· Kool Stuf
Yogurt
· Breyers*
· Jell-O
· Light n' Lively
roger said:
And obviously no one else did, either, because we're seeing the same arguments from incredulity that the pencil refutes...
It's not necessary for everyone to do that.
Learned nothing from the pencil at all, then. If there were no pencils, and I was saying the free market could make them, yould be saying, "Let me know when you present a lecture for sustainable pencil production, or otherwise get published among a company of peers, and I'll be all ears. Until then, I'm going to pay attention to the experts in the field, not the googlers." As if me not knowing how to make a pencil somehow refutes my argument in light of the fact that nobody in the world knows how to make one.
Ed said:But, but, what about my point?
A bud of mine who worked for a "major food manufacturer" (since promoted
Yeah, and they're covering up testimony of UFO landings, too.
digitalmcq said:
You say government didn't "effectively" regulate it, meaning that they did regulate it in some way. So what did they do? How about some facts here? How do we know this is a market failure and not a failure of ineffective regulations?
and realize that Nabisco, General Foods, Breyers, Tombstone, Miller Brewing, Oscar Meyer and Kraft itself were all acquired by PM. Now, suppose you were a supplier to each of those companies. Do you think, for a microsecond, that the aggregate value of your contract would remain the same? Hahahhahahahaha.
No.
And what, precisely is your recourse as they "sharpen the pencil"? Well, it has to do with bending over. Market forces my ass, these companies make the market forces.
No.
And what, precisely is your recourse as they "sharpen the pencil"? Well, it has to do with bending over. Market forces my ass, these companies make the market forces.