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Ear Infection / Head Cold

Strangely enough, ear wax is water soluble.

That IS strange, isn't it? Is it a misnomer then?

I have noticed, similarly, that certain canned foods slide out of the can and can be just rinsed out, completely, with water...no soap...and I think that this might be an indicator that it might be not too bad to eat such stuff. Canned spaghetti/meatball products are this way, for one.
 
This includes the emergency room, which is not required to provide you with definitive care if you're unwilling to pay (despite many misconceptions to the contrary).

Are you sure this statement doesn't more aptly apply to extended care regarding emergency services?

If I cut off my finger on a saw, and fly into the emergency room, and they find out I have no insurance and no money...are they going to say, "Sorry, fella!" ?

Can you provide a list of services that emergency care does NOT perform for indigents?
 
Re: medical costs. I had an angiolplasty this summer. My inital bill was for $67,000. (time from procedure to release was 16 hours) Later bill showed an 'adjustment' for my HMO- 54,000, HMO payed 13k. Who gets stuck with a $67,000 bill? The guy who can't even afford insurance? So he goes bankrupt. What a system!

Right. My insurance normally pays about a third of the requested charges, and the doctors and hospitals accept that. If you have no insurance, you might negotiate the price down a bit, or get an interest-free loan, but you'd never get them down that far. Since cash customers require less paperwork and phone calls, they should be charged less.
 
Seriously? You don't pay into the state mandated health insurance system?

I assure you, that visit is NOT free. Rest assured that your doc bills the insurance system.

No he doesn't. He gets paid his salary out of our taxes, and he gets exactly the same whether I go to see him every day or never.

The comments you've made also reflect on a system that attempts to provide "free" care for everyone. Why did you have such reoccuring ear infections? In a properly functioning health care system, the doctor should refer a patient with a reoccuring problem to a specialist to find the root of the problem and fix it. Doctors and hospitals (at least here in Germany) have a budget for treatment - and for prescribed medicine. Comes the end of the quarter and doc Schneider has written too many (costly) prescriptions, and you end up with a prescription for aspirin for your (hopefully) non-life threatening pains - and aspirin costs you 5 EUR out of pocket for 20 tablets, and the insurance pays on top of that.

My father was the specialist. And as I said, no drugs are needed, just leave it for a few days and it is over. It is far better not to have any prescreptions at all than to waste a specialists time for a problem that is easily dealt with with one visit to a GP.

This type of system encourages pharmacies and pharmaceuticals companies to squeeze all they can out of the insurance companies, who in turn squeeze it out of the insured - who must pay, they have no choice to not be insured.

Was this still related to my post, or part of the overall rant? In the UK the insurance companies have nothing to do with it. The pharma companies can try to squeeze the NHS for all it's got, but as they have found out recently, drugs that cost thousands of pounds per treatment and hardly have a better effect than existing ones will simply not be used. Of course, you can get insurance and go private, but anyone who willingly chooses to be screwed out of their money gets no sympathy from me.

No argument with the rest of it though. :)
 
Originally Posted by Dr. Imago View Post
This includes the emergency room, which is not required to provide you with definitive care if you're unwilling to pay (despite many misconceptions to the contrary).


Are you sure this statement doesn't more aptly apply to extended care regarding emergency services?

If I cut off my finger on a saw, and fly into the emergency room, and they find out I have no insurance and no money...are they going to say, "Sorry, fella!" ?

Can you provide a list of services that emergency care does NOT perform for indigents?
There are private for profit hospitals which can turn away patients who do not have true emergencies. I don't believe any public supported hospitals have that policy. On the other hand, a lot of EDs do the minimum when it isn't an emergency and send the patient off to get follow up elsewhere. Without insurance, the "elsewhere" can be limited.

Also, you aren't going to get your daily medicine prescriptions refilled by going to the ED. So it isn't like EDs provide all uninsured care.

And, there are horror stories of people being turned away from EDs when they shouldn't have been. It definitely happens in the US. Usually there is at least one county hospital that sees everyone, paying or not. Those are the 5 and 10 hour wait type places quite often.

If you cut your finger off, however, there's no guarantee a hand surgeon is going to donate their time to reattach it. So you might get it bandaged but not salvaged if you don't have insurance. ED doctors are not hand surgeons. They can crack your chest to stop the bleeding but putting you back together happens in the OR.

Sometimes the doctors like surgeons rotate call. If the uninsured happens on their watch, tag their it. It all depends on the hospital.
 
... Why did you have such reoccuring ear infections? In a properly functioning health care system, the doctor should refer a patient with a reoccuring problem to a specialist to find the root of the problem and fix it....
As far as bacterial ear infections, there is controversy whether to treat or not treat children's ear infection. I do not believe that applies equally to an adult bacterial ear infection.

And as to the repeat infections, they happen when kids are exposed to multiple respiratory infections at young ages such as in day care. The eustachian tube is not long enough the first couple years of life so colds at that age are more likely to result in secondary bacterial ear infections. The only thing a specialist can do is put in tubes and not every child needs tubes for repeat ear infections.

Personally, I chose to have my son's ear infections treated. And I think part of the controversy comes from the fact parents have variable skills getting those antibiotics into their infants and toddlers. The result is under-treating leading to chronic infections with drug resistant bacteria. In those cases, not treating is better. But if you are more skilled at getting the meds in and in on time, I think treating is worth the effort.

But I would not leave an adult bacterial ear infection untreated. And I would send the patient to a specialist if an adult had a second bacterial otitis media. Fluid in the middle ear with a cold is nothing to worry about. A secondary bacterial infection isn't usually life threatening, but it is definitely painful. More than one bacterial ear infection in an adult deserves a more thorough look.
 
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This includes the emergency room, which is not required to provide you with definitive care if you're unwilling to pay (despite many misconceptions to the contrary).-Dr. Imago

I'm not the authority here on emergency rooms, but as I stated before, I work in an ER, for a hospital system that I believe is the largest health system in New York. I know for a fact that at my hospital we do not refuse treatment to any patient what-so-ever. Regardless of their financial status or ability to pay. In addition to this, we also at this time do not require co-payments or other payments at time of service in the emergency room. I'm not sure, but I believe this is the policy of the hospital system, not just our facility.

Now when you come to our emergency room, you visit the triage nurse first, and then you get to speak with me. I'm responsible for registering and banding every patient that enters the ER. I don't know if it's state law or just hospital policy, but I'm not even allowed to ask any financial questions until after you visit with the triage nurse. ( I believe it is a state law, to prevent discrimination based on an individuals financial status.)

With all due respect, if you could explain what you mean by "definitive care", maybe that would clear up my misunderstanding of your statement. But to imply that this is a ground rule, across the board for all ER's, is simply not correct.:boggled:
 
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Oxy, there's a difference in not refusing care and in providing definitive care. In the ED you treat the immediate problem and if it isn't something requiring hospitalization, you try to get the patient follow up in a clinic later. So if it's a lac that needs sutures, you provide definitive care. You clean it sew it and maybe prescribe an antibx which if the patient gets the Rx filled before leaving, that would be definitive care.

But get an old homeless guy with undiagnosed abdominal pain and you get a workup for the urgent possibilities on the differential but with no clear answer he gets referred for follow up. Now his care depends on the community resources and his ability and motivation to get to the point of service. Should the only public low income clinic available be across town and have a 2 month waiting list, he may never get definitive care. He comes back a month later never having seen anyone, now he's got blood in his urine and it's clear this is a malignant bladder tumor. Unless there is charity care or government provided reimbursement, the ED is hardly the place he's going to get surgery and chemo.
 
With all due respect, if you could explain what you mean by "definitive care", maybe that would clear up my misunderstanding of your statement. But to imply that this is a ground rule, across the board for all ER's, is simply not correct.:boggled:

This is what your hospital system's policy is based upon:

http://www.aaem.org/emtala/index.shtml

They are, in no way, obliged to continue treating or working up a patient once that patient is stabilized. Many do, especially teaching hospitals. But, there is no legal obligation.

For example, an indigent patient comes to your ER because she has a lesion on her breast (using this example because I've seen it firsthand). She is evaluated, and it is determined that this likely represents the "peau d'orange" presentation of an infiltrating carcinoma of the breast. This is not a medical emergency. The patient is discharged with appropriate outpatient follow-up scheduled.

If the hospital was to provide definitive care, the tumor area would have been biopsied, she would have been admitted for an oncologic work-up including radiographic imaging and tumor staging, this would've been followed by surgery to remove the tumor and/or breast, and then she would've received adjuvant chemoradiation. That would have been definitive care.

Because the patient can't pay for this service, she is not entitled to it. This is contrary to what a lot of people believe to be the case. Now, if she has medicaid, there is probably a physician and hospital out there willing to provide her care. Would it be the best care, or at least equivalent to the best possible care she could get? Perhaps.

-Dr. Imago

ETA: Sorry, skepitigirl. This is pretty much spot on. And, you address another whole separate problem in the ED... patients malingering to get three squares and a warm bed. But, that's a separate issue that, unfortunately, EMTALA has created a situation that has handcuffed a lot of hospital systems. So, a lot of those patients are triaged, then sit in the waiting room and are watched, especially if their presentation is considered "suspicious" by the triage nurse. If they don't get sicker, they're usually seen much, much, much, much later... unless they decide to leave first.
 
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Oxy, there's a difference in not refusing care and in providing definitive care. In the ED you treat the immediate problem and if it isn't something requiring hospitalization, you try to get the patient follow up in a clinic later. So if it's a lac that needs sutures, you provide definitive care. You clean it sew it and maybe prescribe an antibx which if the patient gets the Rx filled before leaving, that would be definitive care.

But get an old homeless guy with undiagnosed abdominal pain and you get a workup for the urgent possibilities on the differential but with no clear answer he gets referred for follow up. Now his care depends on the community resources and his ability and motivation to get to the point of service. Should the only public low income clinic available be across town and have a 2 month waiting list, he may never get definitive care. He comes back a month later never having seen anyone, now he's got blood in his urine and it's clear this is a malignant bladder tumor. Unless there is charity care or government provided reimbursement, the ED is hardly the place he's going to get surgery and chemo.

You're certainly correct on that example. You wouldn't get chemo in an ED, however I have seen homeless people come in and be rushed to the OR, for example, acute appendicitis. Or homeless people with DVT or some other ailment have also been admitted to the hospital, for various LOS's, disregarding whether or not the patient has insurance. My point was to clarify, that to say, across the board you will not likely be treated in an ER if you don't have insurance or can't pay the bill, was incorrect. That is why I wanted to understand the poster's definition for definitive care. If your talking chemo, well then they're right. If you talking initial treatment for an injury or something else that doesn't require long term medical treatment, well, at least in my hospital system, you will be treated, admitted and operated on if necessary. :) Just speaking from my own experience, not trying to say this is how it is everywhere.
 
This is what your hospital system's policy is based upon:

http://www.aaem.org/emtala/index.shtml

They are, in no way, obliged to continue treating or working up a patient once that patient is stabilized. Many do, especially teaching hospitals. But, there is no legal obligation.


For example, an indigent patient comes to your ER because she has a lesion on her breast (using this example because I've seen it firsthand). She is evaluated, and it is determined that this likely represents the "peau d'orange" presentation of an infiltrating carcinoma of the breast. This is not a medical emergency. The patient is discharged with appropriate outpatient follow-up scheduled.

If the hospital was to provide definitive care, the tumor area would have been biopsied, she would have been admitted for an oncologic work-up including radiographic imaging and tumor staging, this would've been followed by surgery to remove the tumor and/or breast, and then she would've received adjuvant chemoradiation. That would have been definitive care.

Because the patient can't pay for this service, she is not entitled to it. This is contrary to what a lot of people believe to be the case. Now, if she has medicaid, there is probably a physician and hospital out there willing to provide her care. Would it be the best care, or at least equivalent to the best possible care she could get? Perhaps.

-Dr. Imago

ETA: Sorry, skepitigirl. This is pretty much spot on. And, you address another whole separate problem in the ED... patients malingering to get three squares and a warm bed. But, that's a separate issue that, unfortunately, EMTALA has created a situation that has handcuffed a lot of hospital systems. So, a lot of those patients are triaged, then sit in the waiting room and are watched, especially if their presentation is considered "suspicious" by the triage nurse. If they don't get sicker, they're usually seen much, much, much, much later... unless they decide to leave first.

:clap: I would have to agree with most of what you've said in this post. Which is why I wanted to understand your definition of definitive care. I wanted to understand precisely the types of treatment you were referring to. Let us say for a moment that a pt for reason -X is brought to the ER, and using my example from earlier, it turns out to be acute appendicitis, well now this pt can not pay for the much needed operation nor the hospital stay, meds, etc. My hospital isn't a teaching hospital, but we would admit the pt, and she would be operated on. Our financial department, which has a Medicaid Unit, will try to establish temporary In-patient Medicaid to cover the costs.( they are usually successful, AFAIK)

My problem was someone might misinterpret what you initially said. I didn't want someone with a lac or a broken leg or swollen tongue, to not go to the ER, because they pretty much think, because they don't have insurance and are unable to afford the bill, that they will be turned away. Thanks for clearing it up!;)

You are right on with the whole 3 hot's and a cot situation, I see it all the time, especially during the winter months. It's sad really.
 
I'm not the authority here on emergency rooms, but as I stated before, I work in an ER, for a hospital system that I believe is the largest health system in New York. I know for a fact that at my hospital we do not refuse treatment to any patient what-so-ever. Regardless of their financial status or ability to pay. In addition to this, we also at this time do not require co-payments or other payments at time of service in the emergency room. I'm not sure, but I believe this is the policy of the hospital system, not just our facility.

Now when you come to our emergency room, you visit the triage nurse first, and then you get to speak with me. I'm responsible for registering and banding every patient that enters the ER. I don't know if it's state law or just hospital policy, but I'm not even allowed to ask any financial questions until after you visit with the triage nurse. ( I believe it is a state law, to prevent discrimination based on an individuals financial status.)

With all due respect, if you could explain what you mean by "definitive care", maybe that would clear up my misunderstanding of your statement. But to imply that this is a ground rule, across the board for all ER's, is simply not correct.:boggled:

This is pretty much what I thought.

Poster Oxymoron however is introducing non-emergency services into the emergency room scenario, and that point too I can understasnd if an indigent, let's say, simply goes to the emergency room for non-emergency care...sometimes, or often, for things that are not really an emergency.

But even at THAT...I thought that hospitals still will provide at least a certain amount of basic care to even those who cannot pay. Interestingly though, you hear horror stories, like with the IRS, how hospitals can come after you for payment. (There must be SOME reason why I always see in my town, where they are holding a fund-raiser for the health care for some child with some awful disease for their medical treatment.) Yet. at the same time, there are people out there who have no money and receive all the care they need, out of our system, without reprisal. Interesting, isn't it? It almost pays to be a member of the poverty class, when it comes to health...even dental and eye care!
 
You are right on with the whole 3 hot's and a cot situation, I see it all the time, especially during the winter months.

AH! I was wracking my brain this morning trying to remember that little euphemism. :D Thanks!

-Dr. Imago
 
...

ETA: Sorry, skepitigirl. This is pretty much spot on. And, you address another whole separate problem in the ED... patients malingering to get three squares and a warm bed. But, that's a separate issue that, unfortunately, EMTALA has created a situation that has handcuffed a lot of hospital systems. So, a lot of those patients are triaged, then sit in the waiting room and are watched, especially if their presentation is considered "suspicious" by the triage nurse. If they don't get sicker, they're usually seen much, much, much, much later... unless they decide to leave first.
Are you replying to the right post???????? I said exactly what you said and certainly nothing about coming in for that bed, bath and meal that a few patients try on occasion.
 
You're certainly correct on that example. You wouldn't get chemo in an ED, however I have seen homeless people come in and be rushed to the OR, for example, acute appendicitis. Or homeless people with DVT or some other ailment have also been admitted to the hospital, for various LOS's, disregarding whether or not the patient has insurance. My point was to clarify, that to say, across the board you will not likely be treated in an ER if you don't have insurance or can't pay the bill, was incorrect. That is why I wanted to understand the poster's definition for definitive care. If your talking chemo, well then they're right. If you talking initial treatment for an injury or something else that doesn't require long term medical treatment, well, at least in my hospital system, you will be treated, admitted and operated on if necessary. :) Just speaking from my own experience, not trying to say this is how it is everywhere.
There are charity, county and other public hospitals and there are private for profit ones. Some do less than others for the non-paying patients.

On the other hand, we all pay for the non-payers via our taxes and insurance rates. Most people who argue against national health insurance or a national health care system ignore the fact they are paying for it anyway.
 
On the other hand, we all pay for the non-payers via our taxes and insurance rates. Most people who argue against national health insurance or a national health care system ignore the fact they are paying for it anyway.

so true.
 

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