Merged E-4B flying around pentagon / Norman Mineta timeline

[Kestrel]

Do you have a source for who has asked the right question? You seem to know already, so what's the problem? Do you want it published in the NY Times or would some other publication be more satisfactory?

See John King's CNN report in the Anderson Cooper video linked above.

Rather than leave it as conspiracy fodder, the Air Force could have simply issued a press release saying "Yes, that was an Air Force plane" without going into any real details of what it was doing.

ETA: This aircraft probably rated a footnote in the 9/11 Commission Report.

 

[gumboot]

Rather than leave it as conspiracy fodder, the Air Force could have simply issued a press release saying "Yes, that was an Air Force plane" without going into any real details of what it was doing.

You really think it's good use of government personnel time to address every single stupid little Conspiracy Theory? Should NASA have issued a press release stating there were no satellite-mounted space lasers over the WTC on 9/11?

ETA: This aircraft probably rated a footnote in the 9/11 Commission Report.

Why, exactly?

Here's the problem. Conspiracy Theorists want to credit some sort of significance to this aircraft, because it happened to be in the area. They can't actually come up with what that significance might be. That's because there isn't any. On 9/11 you can be pretty sure there were hundreds of US military aircraft in the air. Should the DOD be required to issue press releases for each of them? Should the 9/11 Commission have mentioned all of them?

The E-4Bs were on standby for the Guardian exercises. Almost certainly they were activated as part of COG, which I believe was initiated on 9/11. From memory the Commission Report doesn't mentioned the blast doors of Cheyenne Mountain being closed on 9/11 either - another COG measure.

 

[Kestrel]

You really think it's good use of government personnel time to address every single stupid little Conspiracy Theory? Should NASA have issued a press release stating there were no satellite-mounted space lasers over the WTC on 9/11?

The aircraft was real and did cause concern. It wasn't a fantasy, or pure invention. It was noted on TV while the events of 9/11 were going on. It was in the restricted airspace over Washington DC where aircraft are seldom seen. Our government was asked and refused to answer, pulling out the National Security card when it wasn't really needed.

ETA: Your attempt at argument by ridicule wan't really appropriate.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

You really think it's good use of government personnel time to address every single stupid little Conspiracy Theory? Should NASA have issued a press release stating there were no satellite-mounted space lasers over the WTC on 9/11?





Why, exactly?

Here's the problem. Conspiracy Theorists want to credit some sort of significance to this aircraft, because it happened to be in the area. They can't actually come up with what that significance might be. That's because there isn't any. On 9/11 you can be pretty sure there were hundreds of US military aircraft in the air. Should the DOD be required to issue press releases for each of them? Should the 9/11 Commission have mentioned all of them?

The E-4Bs were on standby for the Guardian exercises. Almost certainly they were activated as part of COG, which I believe was initiated on 9/11. From memory the Commission Report doesn't mentioned the blast doors of Cheyenne Mountain being closed on 9/11 either - another COG measure.

Or all of the naval units surged out of ports that morning. There's a lot of things that happen automatically when the THREATCON goes up suddenly from Alpha or Bravo to Delta. That's one of the reasons I wasn't all that surprised when I found out that Rumsfeld was helping out survivors at the Pentagon soon after the attack on it. After the THREATCON was raised he didn't really have anything else to do for the next few hours.

It only takes one simple order to get everyone kicking the tires and lighting the fires heading towards a defensive posture. As it filters down to the various commands and they start giving orders from a prepared checklist there's not a lot for the higher ups to do. They know this and generally keep out of the way so that the orders can be given and accomplished as quickly as possible. It took about six hours before everything and everyone around the globe was up to speed. This also didn't surprise me because you usually can't (with a very few exceptions) just turn a key and get underway from a cold iron condition.

 

[Hornit]

The aircraft was real and did cause concern. It wasn't a fantasy, or pure invention. It was noted on TV while the events of 9/11 were going on. It was in the restricted airspace over Washington DC where aircraft are seldom seen. Our government was asked and refused to answer, pulling out the National Security card when it wasn't really needed.

ETA: Your attempt at argument by ridicule wan't really appropriate.

After watching the video which includes the aircraft's ground track it is evident that this aircraft DID NOT penetrate P-56 (The Whitehouse). Watch the video for yourself, you don't need to take our word for it.

I agree with others here. National Command authority assets such as the E-4B do not require explanation. It may seem silly to you, but it is done for good reason. It is not your call, nor anyone elses in the public domain to decide if and when the "National Security card" gets pulled.

 

[gumboot]

The aircraft was real and did cause concern.

Only for the mentally unbalanced.

It was noted on TV while the events of 9/11 were going on.

So what?

It was in the restricted airspace over Washington DC where aircraft are seldom seen.

No it wasn't.

Our government was asked and refused to answer, pulling out the National Security card when it wasn't really needed.

Wasn't it? Answering such questions would set a bad precedent and make it difficult to argue the "National Security" card at later dates.

High security assets of this nature are not discussed as a matter of policy, and this is done for a very good reason. The British as well as NZ and Australian governments, for example, do not discuss the activities of their SAS units. To this day, the New Zealand government does not officially acknowledge SAS involvement in the Vietnam War, even though it's common knowledge that they were there. This is for a very good reason. Likewise, the US Government will not officially acknowledge the existence of SFOD-D, despite the fact that their existence is widely known.

By having a blanket "do not discuss" policy you avoid situations where refusal to comment can be seen as an indicator or something significant going on. The E-4B, for example, is regularly seconded to FEMA for Disaster Response. There's no obvious security reason for not discussing this, but if you do discuss it, any time you refuse to discuss E-4B activities, it can be taken that their activity was military and secret in nature.

 

[Kestrel]

Only for the mentally unbalanced.

Argument by insult.

So what?

No it wasn't.

Wasn't it? Answering such questions would set a bad precedent and make it difficult to argue the "National Security" card at later dates.

A classic slippery slope argument.

All they needed to do was confirm that this was an Air Force plane. A simple statement of fact. They didn't have to discuss the details of it's mission, or the capabilities of this aircraft. The President and others below him have the power to make such a decision. They certainly felt free to release classified information on more serious matters when it was in their own political interest.

The public interest is not served by the government keeping secrets where there is no need for secrets. Nor it is served by a government that lies about what happened. Those actions lead to public mistrust of government and serve and help to spread conspiracy theories.

 

[BigAl]

Argument by insult.

A classic slippery slope argument.

Precisely. That's what governemnt officials won't comment on certain aspects of nation defense.

All they needed to do was confirm that this was an Air Force plane. A simple statement of fact.

What part of "no comment" do you not understand?

 

[Pinch]

Before the flight, that makes sense. After the flight, there is no reason to keep it secret.

I agree with Reheat. TTPs, or "tactics, techniques and procedures" and "What is their standard operating procedure" information for anything can be gleaned from any piece of data, provided it is examined by the right set of eyes.

Just because something happened in the past does not mean critical information, data and can not be gleaned by what *was* done. Taking a look at the Venus flight, things like departure procedures in an emergency situation, rate-of-climb, initial altitudes, on-station procedures, etc can all provide info to individuals who can cause harm.

Plus, just because some of this information is available through publicly-available web sites or through FOIA requests, there is no reason to make the information easy to get to in the first place. Who the heck cares what the Venus flight was doing up there and how it got there and what it did? I know it is there and why it is there - that's good enough for me.

 

[bill smith]

Well, since the take-off time and general route of flight was posted earlier it is obviously no longer secret. The transcripts of ATC communications and the radar track are available to everyone who is interested.

In case you don't know the only FOIA request to DoD (of which I am aware) was for the aircraft that violated P-56 airspace. Since this aircraft or any other did not violate P-56 airspace DoD indicated they had no knowledge of any such aircraft. That was a true statement.

In case you want to pursue this further, perhaps you should first learn about espionage techniques employed by our enemies instead of depending on what might at superficial perusal be common sense. For any sensitive asset owned and operated by DoD, in this case the Air Force, the established policy is to not discuss it via the technique of neither affirming or denying that it even exists. This is a policy based on many years of experience and it is not going to be changed by the whining of conspiracy theorists or the expression of curiosity from a citizen. You or I simply do not have a need to know and it is best for National Security to keep it that way.

It would have been smart if they had encrypted the radio communications with one pf their most secret aircraft too. Lessons learned for the future I hope.lol

 

[bill smith]

Argument by insult.



A classic slippery slope argument.

All they needed to do was confirm that this was an Air Force plane. A simple statement of fact. They didn't have to discuss the details of it's mission, or the capabilities of this aircraft. The President and others below him have the power to make such a decision. They certainly felt free to release classified information on more serious matters when it was in their own political interest.

The public interest is not served by the government keeping secrets where there is no need for secrets. Nor it is served by a government that lies about what happened. Those actions lead to public mistrust of government and serve and help to spread conspiracy theories.

Yes the way they behaved it was almost as if they were deliberately trying to get conspiracy theories going wasn't it ?

 

[Cheap Shot]

It's as silly as the days when the CIA exit on the George Washington Parkway didn't have a sign.

I beleive you mean the NSA, CIA was in Langley, VA.

I have to agree with most everyone here, it is a need to know only basis. Little bits of information may seem not important at all, but putting all of those bits of information together and you can uncover vital information.

 

[njslim]

The attacks on Sept 11 triggered the COG (continuity of government) plans,
one of the most secret operations in the government. COG is often called by
conspiracy types "the shadow government" envsioning bunch of invisible sinister types pushing buttons and pulling levers of power unaccountable to
anybody. The secret command sites at Mt Weather in Virginia and Raven
Rock (Site R) in Pennsylvania were activated and staffers from various
departments and bureaucracies manning them . This was the famous undisclosed location where Dick Chaney was hiding out in. The launch of the
E4B, a flying command and control center, was part of theis plan to allow
Pentagon to run operations even if land based centers were destroyed.

 

[Kestrel]

I beleive you mean the NSA, CIA was in Langley, VA.

I know what I am talking about. Look it up on Google Maps.

CIA headquarters is just off the George Washington Memorial Parkway in Virginia. No Such Agency is on the other side of DC.

I have to agree with most everyone here, it is a need to know only basis. Little bits of information may seem not important at all, but putting all of those bits of information together and you can uncover vital information.

In this specific case, what is the risk?

 

[Myriad]

In this specific case, what is the risk?

You just quoted the explanation of what the risk is: that little bits of information that may seem not important at all, might be put together to uncover vital information.

Which little bits, you ask? Well, know one knows for sure. That's why you don't release anything if you can avoid it. That's the whole point.

"You're locking your front door when you leave the house? Who, specifically, do you expect would enter your house and damage or take things?"

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Kestrel]

You just quoted the explanation of what the risk is: that little bits of information that may seem not important at all, might be put together to uncover vital information.

Which little bits, you ask? Well, know one knows for sure. That's why you don't release anything if you can avoid it. That's the whole point.

"You're locking your front door when you leave the house? Who, specifically, do you expect would enter your house and damage or take things?"

The bad guys don't have superhuman powers, they use the same tools for logic and deduction that we do. In the specific case of the aircraft seen over DC on 9/11, there is zero risk in confirming that it did indeed belong to the Air Force.

Try thinking for yourself instead of just repeating the mantra.

 

[BigAl]

The bad guys don't have superhuman powers, they use the same tools for logic and deduction that we do. In the specific case of the aircraft seen over DC on 9/11, there is zero risk in confirming that it did indeed belong to the Air Force.

Try thinking for yourself instead of just repeating the mantra.

What airplane?

(What part of SECRET do you not understand?)

 

[Kestrel]

What airplane?

(What part of SECRET do you not understand?)

A modified 747 known as a Boeing E-4^WP.

It's not a big secret that these aircraft exist.

 

[BigAl]

A modified 747 known as a Boeing E-4^WP.

It's not a big secret that these aircraft exist.

What part of "no comment" do you not understand?

Even if your point about "it doesn't matter" stands, the guy answering the questions was sworn to secrecy and had no authority to deviate from orders. The comment would have to be officially declassified.

 

[Kestrel]

What part of "no comment" do you not understand?

Even if your point about "it doesn't matter" stands, the guy answering the questions was sworn to secrecy and had no authority to deviate from orders. The comment would have to be officially declassified.

The events of 9/11 made it a special case, not business as usual. The policy should have been let the public know except for specific bits of information that had to be kept secret. If running it up the chain of command is required for release, do a review and run it up to get the proper signature.