Dylan Avery Gets Schooled By The BBC (Video)

[Unsecured Coins]

the Twoof Movement - Why be right when you can be loud?

 

[Edx]

This is important, Edx. Let's work through this, okay?

I'd love to not have to be so confrontational, so if you want to clean the air a bit and calm down thats great Gravy. But right now, I think you'll have to forgive my tone seeing how everyone is attacking me, and now look, Im an anti-semite as well! Whatever next.

1) What Odigo employees?
2) Where were they?
3) What warnings did they receive?

It's important.

I read the news reports, they didnt mention them in the film that the 4,000 Jewish workers being warned myth actually did have a grain of truth to it. So theres that, along with the fact that they implied all CTs that mention something to do with Israli's being warned hate Jews. Thats whats important and thats my point. You dont need to agree with the CTs claims just dont misrepresent them. Id say the same thing about a film on Creationists, but while I will defend dishonesty and strawmen against Creationist (doesnt happen often) it doesnt mean I agree with Creationism.

 

[Edx]

Edx:
It sounds to me that you should be more mad at the "truth" leaders for pushing the crap then the BBC for not trying to discover all of the issues. You seem to disagree with a lot of these leaders views but truth of the matter is these are the people that made this "movement". Get them to stop pushing the BS and maybe somebody might take up the issues that are a little less bizarre.

I am mad at them, you guys have just assumed Im not. In a different debate I would be arguing with you, but we're not talking about that right now we're talking about the Conspiracy Files show.

 

[Arus808]

I read the news reports, they didnt mention them in the film that the 4,000 Jewish workers being warned myth actually did have a grain of truth to it.

It didn't have any TRUTH to it, NOT EVEN so much as a microscopic granule to it.

There you go MISREPRESENTING the facts.

2 EMPLOYEES ONLY in ISRAel RECEIVED a message.

How can 2 employees TRANSLATE to 4000 ?

 

[Arus808]

Where did I say otherwise?

Where did I say that you stated otherwise? Can you read and comprehend?

Where did I imply otherwise?

Where did I say that you implied otherwise? Can you read and comprehend?

And do you not remember what the point was?

Can you comprehend? I've provided FACTS that state only 2 employees received a message. AND when INVESTIGATED, it had NO MERIT to what happened on 911.

YOU are taking the position that 2 employees were warned; when all they received was a vERY vague message, and now are attributing it to that 4000 "jews" were warned. CAre to explain your logical thinking behind this?

Other than them implying all CTs that mention this point are anti-semites, which is, you know, exactly what is happening now, the film didnt actually explain that there was some truth to the myth of Jews being warned.

Which means YOU DIDN"T UNDERSTAND THE SEGMENT

 

[Arus808]

I am mad at them, you guys have just assumed Im not. In a different debate I would be arguing with you, but we're not talking about that right now we're talking about the Conspiracy Files show.

We are still waiting for your list of what was FACTUALLY wrong with teh show. So far, you have been arguing your OPINIONS. NOT FACTS.

 

[Walter Ego]

I dare you to show me where I have something that isnt written in the news reports I have cited. And dont forget to remember why I brought up these "primary" sources for this claim.

You have not ‘cited’ anything that I have seen. As a university student you must surely know what a citation is. In the context of this forum, it would be a link to a verifiable source like those news items you keep mentioning.

Yes you are you are claiming that Im making an argument about this that I am not. If you had been paying attention theres nothing to argue about, but you cant accept my argument so have to invent another one just so you disagree with me on this. Its really ridiculous. Even Creationists, i have to say, have never acted as badly to me or anyone else as all you are doing now. And thats really saying something

Stop whining. Nobody here is being mean to you. This isn’t a truther forum where speculation and bald assertion parade as facts. The standards here are different. When you make a claim you have to back it up.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

They even call it a conspiracy, sorry. And Let it happen On purpose is not the only CT claim. This was a film looking into conspiracy theories, not just MIHOP and LIHOP, thats why they talked about the incompetence conspiracy at all. This is a conspiracy that is claimed on this forum by many people to be nonsence as well but is pushed by the very film you defend.

Which shows you don't understand the meaning. And you clearly don't even understand what the film was about. I cannot be held responsible for your misunderstanding, nor can the film.

How was I wrong? I said the graphic was inaccurate, and it is. I said NIST backed away from pancaking theory, perhaps "backing away" wasnt the right term to use for what I meant which was that NIST said pancaking theory wasnt correct. Of course its not totally inaccurate, but people were asking for factual errors so I figured I'd pick on that. Wikipedia puts it like this: "... Once these connections failed, the pancake collapse could initiate. The NIST report, however, would ultimately vindicate the floor connections; indeed, the collapse mechanism depends on the strength of these connections as the floors pulled the outer walls in."

The graphic was not inaccurate at all. It depicts the collapse post-initiation. The graphics of how the initiation started are completely supported by NIST and show how the steal weakened which then caused trusses to fail. Exactly as NIST has found. NIST never claimed the collapse was INITIATED by pancake, but everyone who isn't an idiot including NIST agree that the collapse itself was a pancake effect. Each floor hit the floor below nocking it down one by one. This again, is an issue of YOU misunderstanding what NIST said and going by the explanation given on twuther sites, not NIST.

Go READ the NIST report before you make false claims and libel.

Strawman Jonny. I didnt ask them to include "everyone", but not only did they not include any of the people I listed, not only did they not even mention them but in the case of the people like the Jersey Girls implied they even even exist.

No kid, your whole argument is a strawman. Should they have consulted YOU? If they had picked the ones you are now claiming they should have, then you would be arguing about all the ones they left out still. It's a bogus argument and you know it. This is the strongest case of you being a con artist.

Strawman Jonny. I didnt ask them to bring up "everything".

Once again pointing out your strawman argument in that anything short of "everything" would allow your argument. All you have to do is point out the arguments they don't bring up no matter which ones they are. If they included the Jersey Girl idiots, then you would be complaining about whatever other argument they left out in order to include them. They were likely left out because they are such a weak argument that it would simply make the conspiracy theorists look worse. And the fact is that most of the arguments made by the Jersey girls are not conspiracy theory related, simply intelligence failures. The documentary was on conspiracy theories. This again points out that you are a fraud since you argue about them not including non-conspiracy arguments.

Then why am I only focused on Conspiracy Files as being so bad? Why did I say the history channels documentary was a lot better? Why did I say that the program that disagrees with Alex Jones' on Bohemian Grove and the Bilderberg Group and the NWO was fair and balanced? I would go further and say it was a great documentary. Theres a way to reasonably conduct a documentary into this while not misrepresenting people, but I guess you wouldnt know being such a veteran of strawmen burning yourself.

Everyone picks their area of focus. yours is painting an unfair and incorrect picture of a conspiracy documentary by bringing up conspiracy theory claims and arguments to do so. And you like the 1000 lemmings before you choose an angle that YOU think gives you an out because God forbid people know what you really think. You think you're the first one here to raise the same argument as you using the same tactic?

Just wanting a little fairness and not a misrepresentations of people is apparently "absolutely absurd" standards.

That's the LAST thing you want and you have proven that beyond any doubt. You want just the opposite of that. Just like most truthers claim they just want answers or the truth yet want nothing but the opposite of that.

I already responded to that, so for the nth time, if they cut out all the spin and misrepresentative sections and perhaps not so needlessly focusing on Frank Spotniz' for so long telling us CTs are basically a religion for crazies, before of course telling us that there actually there was a conspiracy theory themselves, they might actually have had time to include just a little more content into the piece.

You already responded to it, yet you bring it up again. It's not spin. There are important issues to this matter that aren't in the physical elements themselves, but rather the psychological reasoning as to why conspiracy theorists need to make all of this stuff up. It's obvious that they are very wrong in their theories, but what's more important is understanding the cause of the behavior. Not only was it not needless, it was probably the single most important segment of the show. The fact that you completely miss this point says quite a lot.

According to Haaratz and The Washington post Odigo really did receive warnings via instant messenger before the attacks. According to those news reports they thought it was important enough for their employees to notify their management, who contacted Israeli security services, who then contacted the FBI. Thats the truth around the myth. So my point Jonny, if you'd have cared enough to actually listen to it is that there was this true story in the story Conspiracy Files talked about but they ignored even pointing that out in favour of suggesting all of it was a myth its all anti-semetic nonsence and generally that this is what CT really think and it really hurts the victims families.

Oh really? Please quote us what that warning message was. Which news reports? let's see the exact reports. A lot of things were worth reporting. Almost anything out o the ordinary was reported. That doesn't mean it had anything to do with the attacks. There were 1000s of incidents reported that day as everyone was suspicious of everything. YOU are the one making pure conjecture as to it being part of 9/11 and that the Jews were somehow in on it. That's not the truth around the myth, it's your BS around the myth.

Again, please show us the articles, and please quote this "warning" message. Here's a quote for you:

"Without going into details, the message was most noteworthy due to the timing, not due to the substance of the 'warning.' It could easily be coincidence," - Alex Diamandis

And who were they warning? The company is nowhere near the WTC let alone in it. And no one involved was in the WTC.

I know why they brought him on Jonny, and I didnt say he shouldnt have been brought on, its that they focused on him for so long that is why Im suggesting if they had cut some of his section out along with the misrepresentations they indulged in they could have included more content. Yes he was a product of a CT but after a while he's just expressing his opinion.

Obviously you don't. And the fact that you keep calling them misrepresentations shows that you didn't even understand the show. Again, it wasn't about him expressing his opinion, it was going into the most important part of the show, which is the mentality about why people make this stuff up. Why people like YOU find this stuff as "misrepresentations" because you aren't able to understand it.

How is it my libel? They made out that Dylan is denying Delta 1982 even existed and that the woman didnt even take the flight.

Showing once again that you don't understand what they were doing. Now YOU are completely misrepresenting the documentary.

If government lies are not relevant why did they have a montage of examples of government lies? Im saying there are much more relevant examples than what they used.

It's a major strawman argument. It's like me saying "Because you stole something as a kid, you are therefore guilty of any crime I choose regardless of there being any evidence o such crimes". Your opinion is noted. But to simply disagree is one thing, claiming its unfair and a misrepresentation is simply wrong.

What way round are you claiming that I am seeing it? They said exactly what i said they said. They didnt even just say it was a coverup, they said it was a conspiracy where people involved intentionally mislead.

Once again, your misunderstanding of a conspiracy.

Many are hurt, I never denied that and they had a right to say that and I would have had no problem with it if they had, but to pretend the Jersey Girls dont exist by simply ignoring their existence is not giving a fair and balanced picture. That is what the film claimed to be, a fair and objective investigation to give people a balanced picture of the issues. And that is what this film was claimed to be by the people in this thread which caused me to start arguing.

Now they pretend the Jersey girls don't exist because they didn't include a non-conspiracy segment? Are you insane??You are the one pretending here. You being irrational is what has caused you to start arguing.

Strawman again. I didnt say it had anything to do with a larger plot. I wonder if I should just continue to reply to your nonsence even just to point out how you're arguing against positions Im not taking.

It's funny to see YOU yelling strawman when that's all you present. Of course you didn't say that, you don't say anything. And gosh you're so clever and we have no idea what you are doing. you're just too smart for us. Keep pretending kid, keep pretending. Wink wink.

You're just like the worst of the people you attack, you're unreasonable, irrational and unable to accept when you're wrong so have to resport to personal attacks and strawmen.

I attack? Who came here making an attack on the documentary. YOU did. You are the one spouting rubbish arguments about how unfair, unbalanced, and what a misrepresentation it is. I am attacking your bogus arguments that have little merit. And you call me irrational because I point out that your opinion is not a valid argument? You're the one who disagrees with their choice of segments and tries to claim that makes it unfair? You need serious help.

 

[Drudgewire]

But right now, I think you'll have to forgive my tone seeing how everyone is attacking me, and now look, Im an anti-semite as well! Whatever next.

It's really nothing personal. It's that our patience long ago wore thin with this song and dance.

Forget this is the conspiracy theory section for a moment and stop to consider you're on an educational/skepticism forum. Go to forums designed for this rot and you can make any blanket accusation you want, but here you have evidence or you have nothing. Since the smart guys here have seen it all before, to just start bleating the same mantras without anything new or legitimate to really show us up with means nothing more than another round of brick walls.

And moreover, to use this place as a soapbox against bias in the media because poor Dylan Avery and Alex Jones weren't given the respect you dolts somehow think they have an ounce of coming to them ANYWHERE outside of your little play world? You weren't asking for it, you were DYING for it.

So pardon my tone, but you can shove that victim card right back where you were pulled it out from.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Well go on then I challenge you, no, I dare you to show where I said what you claim I said. Its that simple. You cant because theres no way you can honestly interpret what Ive said as meaning what you want it to mean.

You want me to show you the posts where you claimed the film was unfair, unbalanced, and a misrepresentation? That's not much of a challenge buddy.

Now how about my challenge. Show us the text warning message that was sent over IM.

And another laughing dog at you coming here and making attacks on someone and then pretending that everyone is attacking you because your arguments are nonsense. LOL!

 

[Edx]

It didn't have any TRUTH to it, NOT EVEN so much as a microscopic granule to it.

There you go MISREPRESENTING the facts.

2 EMPLOYEES ONLY in ISRAel RECEIVED a message.

How can 2 employees TRANSLATE to 4000 ?

Yea its amazing how someone twisted that isnt it? Still, theres something else to the story they reported in Conspiracy Files, but they chose not to actually mention that there was a grain of truth to it or how the myth of 4000 jews got started. Do you deny they dont mention any of this? They cite one news sources, but not the other two I did, I wonder why.

 

[Edx]

You want me to show you the posts where you claimed the film was unfair, unbalanced, and a misrepresentation? That's not much of a challenge buddy.

Yes, I did say that. Ive been very open about that. But you also claimed I was critcising the film in more ways than just this. Why dont you go back and see which claim of yours I called a strawman and prove I said that. Go on. Too bad you know you cant.

Now how about my challenge. Show us the text warning message that was sent over IM.

What would that prove? Are you denying that happened? Are you denying those news sources reported it?

And another laughing dog at you coming here and making attacks on someone and then pretending that everyone is attacking you because your arguments are nonsense. LOL!

How old are you?

 

[Edx]

It's really nothing personal. It's that our patience long ago wore thin with this song and dance.

Forget this is the conspiracy theory section for a moment and stop to consider you're on an educational/skepticism forum. Go to forums designed for this rot and you can make any blanket accusation you want, but here you have evidence or you have nothing. Since the smart guys here have seen it all before, to just start bleating the same mantras without anything new or legitimate to really show us up with means nothing more than another round of brick walls.

And moreover, to use this place as a soapbox against bias in the media because poor Dylan Avery and Alex Jones weren't given the respect you dolts somehow think they have an ounce of coming to them ANYWHERE outside of your little play world? You weren't asking for it, you were DYING for it.

So pardon my tone, but you can shove that victim card right back where you were pulled it out from.

No matter how many times Ive said it, just because Im against dishonest programming no matter if I disagree with the conclusion or not, this automatically makes me a truther. Good job logic boy.

 

[Slayhamlet]

Its not about the theories its the details. But I dont want to move a discussion Im having on another thread to this, already a train wreak, of a thread.

Fine, I'll leave that alone for this thread then.

Its related, but also stands on its own the same way the incompetence and not acting on intelligence conspiracy they push at the end of the film can be "related". In this case its the "theory", if you can really call it a theory, that the government lied about the quality of the air and now first responders are dying of related illness'.

No, it's not related to 9/11 conspiracy theories at all, whereas the issues of government incompetence and intelligence failures are, and directly so. LIHOP is a conspiracy theory, wouldn't you agree?

Also, the government didn't lie about the quality of the air at the clean-up site. The EPA did give false information about the safety of the air for the public in the area around GZ, for economic/political reasons (they wanted Wall Street up and running again as soon as possible).

Its been a long day yes I meant Israeli. You should read this post on previous page. It was meant to be my last but I wasnt aware people would ignore it and twist it quite as much as they had.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3412097&postcount=185

Okay, thanks. Here's the part of your post I'm specifically interested in:

5. At 40:35 is the most deceptively spun part. They dont quote the fact that the story was originally reported in the Haaretz and then reported further in The Washington Post that some were warned via instant messenger. I thought he was going back to primary sources to investigate the claims? "4,000 Jews" is of course an exaggeration, but instead of saying there was some truth to the story, they just claimed it was all nonsence. They also used emotional manipulation by showing a Jewish victems family member who asked why her husband wasnt warned. They even use sad piano music over the top. And thats it, thats all they say about that topic. They dont even interview any of the CTs to see what they said about it, could it be because neither Alex or Avery and probably Fetzer as well never actually made the claim the way they said they did? Instead its just implied this is what the argument is, its wrong and its still spread and it hurts the families and its anti-semitic. Presumably if they interviewed Alex he would have mentioned Haaretz and The Washington Post and then they wouldnt have been able to make as strong a point. How can it be fair and objective when they spin the argument?

The story about the possible warnings on Odigo is not related to the "4000 absent Jews" conspiracy theory. Perhaps the two have coalesced among certain anti-Semitic snake-oil peddlers into a single conspiracy theory, but they weren't in origin. If you believe they are the same, you were lied to. The provenance of the claim that 4000 thousand Jewish workers were warned on 9/11 not to go to work at the WTC is an article from the Lebanon-based Al-Manar television station, the propaganda-arm of Hezbollah, just as the Conspiracy Files program says it is. The story was also repeated in an article by Pravda, I believe. Neither article makes mention of the Odigo warnings. Moreover, the Washington Post article about the Odigo "warnings" and the FBI investigation into it makes clear that the two people who were supposedly warned about 9/11 were Odigo employees in Israel, not Jews who worked at the WTC. It was later revealed that they were general warnings about a terrorist attack occurring on 9/11 and weren't specific to the WTC, or even America.

 

[Slayhamlet]

Yea its amazing how someone twisted that isnt it? Still, theres something else to the story they reported in Conspiracy Files, but they chose not to actually mention that there was a grain of truth to it or how the myth of 4000 jews got started. Do you deny they dont mention any of this? They cite one news sources, but not the other two I did, I wonder why.

Really, why? They're not related. The Odigo story doesn't substantiate the "4000 Jews" claim at all and in fact developed entirely independently from it.

 

[Drudgewire]

No matter how many times Ive said it, just because Im against dishonest programming no matter if I disagree with the conclusion or not, this automatically makes me a truther. Good job logic boy.

Yes, because that's the best example of it you can find anywhere... unlike on every investigative news-type magazine show ever. So to choose to take this particular stance on this particular board about this particular show?

Well... disingenuous is a HUGE understatement.

And for the record on the outward chance I'm wrong about you, the devil's advocate/moral relativism gimmick isn't any less of a troll-baiting one than "douchey CTer."

Either way, I'm done with you. Welcome to ignore.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Yes, I did say that. Ive been very open about that. But you also claimed I was critcising the film in more ways than just this. Why dont you go back and see which claim of yours I called a strawman and prove I said that. Go on. Too bad you know you cant.



What would that prove? Are you denying that happened? Are you denying those news sources reported it?


How old are you?

Ah yes, the posts of yours which I addressed piece by piece. Tell us again what I said you said that you didn't. Because what REALLY happened is I accused you of a certain behavior, which you then translated into me claiming you made a literal claim. That would be YOU LYING. But if you feel the need to lie to pretend you are being unfairly attacked, it's your business. Just don't expect to be taken seriously here with that kind of behavior.

What would the IM thing prove? Gosh, did YOU not bring it up? What were you trying to prove. Are you now claiming that the fact it was reported makes it somehow a conspiracy? PLease, show us those reports. Show us the grain of truth to it you speak of. Show us the message. Why can't you do it? it's YOUR argument, back it up.

Obviously I am a lot older than you. You can continue as long as you want, but sooner or later you're going to start having to be honest.

 

[Edx]

Where did I say that you stated otherwise? Can you read and comprehend?

Where did I say that you implied otherwise? Can you read and comprehend?

You were arguing against something different to what I was saying. Why were you are you telling me that it wasnt a specifc message? Why were you telling me it was only two Odigo employees?

Can you comprehend? I've provided FACTS that state only 2 employees received a message. AND when INVESTIGATED, it had NO MERIT to what happened on 911.

I know it didnt, Im not even arguing that. See what I mean?

YOU are taking the position that 2 employees were warned; when all they received was a vERY vague message, and now are attributing it to that 4000 "jews" were warned. CAre to explain your logical thinking behind this?

Because its related to The Jerusalem Post news item they cited. They said the argument was that 4000 Jews were warned before 911. They rightly said this wasnt nonsence, but didnt tell you was that Ha'aratz and The Washington Post reported that Israeli Intelligence was send a report by Odigo of some instant message warning regarding 911 who then reported it to the FBI. There was an interesting grain of bizzare truth to the tale they didnt report. Yet if someone was to watch Conspiracy Files they would assume, if I mentioned about the instant message warnings, that I was one of those people that thinks 4000 Jews were warned and Im just as nutty as they are. Of course all I can be saying is that this should have been included in a documentary and all of a sudden Im an anti-semite, so dont pretend that wouldnt happen.

Which means YOU DIDN"T UNDERSTAND THE SEGMENT

It must be amazing to do the kind of mental gymnatics you are doing to justify it. I'd like to see you defend them implying that Avery denies Delta 1989 even existed and that the passenger wasnt even on the plane.

 

[Arus808]

Yea its amazing how someone twisted that isnt it? Still, theres something else to the story they reported in Conspiracy Files, but they chose not to actually mention that there was a grain of truth to it or how the myth of 4000 jews got started.

AGAIN YOU FAIL to COMPREHEND!

Please watch the SEGMENT again. You seem to be ignorant of why the BBC didn't bother to "chase" down the theory. And teh ODIGO story HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 4000 jews story.

You apparently are not good at reesearching.

Oy jeez. Really, do you have to have your HAND held through this?

 

[Arus808]

You were arguing against something different to what I was saying. Why were you are you telling me that it wasnt a specifc message? Why were you telling me it was only two Odigo employees?

I GAVE you links to where WE ARE CURRENTLY DISCUSSING THIS ON THIS FORUM! WHy dont you bother to REASEARCH? Why didn't you bother TO READ the reports?