Dust cloud, or alien construction?

[alexi_drago]

We don't currently use smoke signals or signal flags. I doubt an advanced civilization would use radio.

Maybe the fluctuations in the light from the star are the equivelant of smoke signals meant to be seen. What better way would there be to be noticed?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Maybe the fluctuations in the light from the star are the equivelant of smoke signals meant to be seen. What better way would there be to be noticed?

A big booming voice from the sky?

Nah, been done.

 

[Dinwar]

The only thing this means is that their radio signals are not aimed directly at us and that if they are using tons and tons of omnidirectional signals as we do, they are not transmitting anything 100 times more powerful than we have ever transmitted. They are simply too far away to hear even if they do have radio transmissions.

Right. It's not "There is no alien life there". Rather, it's "Here's one line of evidence that hasn't panned out". There are alternatives being explored.

 

[Clive]

I'm interested to hear what people think about the likelihood of a technologically very advanced life-form failing to develop a fusion based energy system and therefore moving onto some form of Dyson sphere instead, versus a fusion based system turning out to be much more realistic and also adequate.

To put it a slightly different way, if this did eventually turn out to be an alien construction (and for energy harvesting purposes) could we reasonably also infer that fusion based systems must be much much harder than is supposed?

I (vaguely) understand there could be an extremely large difference in scale between the two, but (also vaguely) it feels to me that if fusion was mastered, then a multiplicity of fusion generators should also be doable?

 

[alexi_drago]

A big booming voice from the sky?

Nah, been done.

Heard once by someone and never again with just stories of it being passed on, put an occluder in orbit and you have a long lasting lighthouse.

 

[Dinwar]

To put it a slightly different way, if this did eventually turn out to be an alien construction (and for energy harvesting purposes) could we reasonably also infer that fusion based systems must be much much harder than is supposed?

I would say no.

For one thing, a Dyson sphere would only supply power to the planets inside it. Anything going on OUTside of that sphere would still need an external power source. For another, it's always useful to have relatively mobile power sources. There's a reason nuclear submarines aren't attached to the power grid; that same reason would mean that alien civilizations would have ample reason to build much-smaller fusion reactors.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Heard once by someone and never again with just stories of it being passed on, put an occluder in orbit and you have a long lasting lighthouse.

But they needed the VLA to hear it.

(Ironic that the VLA has been surpassed by three antennae, widely separated but linked by software.)

 

[Davidm]

I'm interested to hear what people think about the likelihood of a technologically very advanced life-form failing to develop a fusion based energy system and therefore moving onto some form of Dyson sphere instead, versus a fusion based system turning out to be much more realistic and also adequate.

This is an interesting point. If we assume that fusion is possible in a way that makes economic sense then would there ever be any reason to build a Dyson solar array?

Maybe robotic manufacturing (nanotech perhaps?) could be so advanced that such an array can be constructed by simply releasing a few self-replicating robotic devices that would mine asteroids to create an array of solar satellites. This might make it as economical (maybe more economical) as building fusion generators.

Maybe, assuming it is an alien construct (a HUGE assumption), it's for some purpose other than harvesting energy.

Maybe it's the unintended result of runaway self-replicators.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This is an interesting point. If we assume that fusion is possible in a way that makes economic sense then would there ever be any reason to build a Dyson solar array?

If they're anything like humans there could be an irrational reason to not use fusion power. Remember "You fight with light?" from Ringworld?

 

[Dinwar]

This is an interesting point. If we assume that fusion is possible in a way that makes economic sense then would there ever be any reason to build a Dyson solar array?

A Dyson sphere would give you a LOT more power. Fusion on any planet has a maximum limit of the planet's volume, and the star in any planetary system will dominate the mass of the system; ergo, if you converted 100% of the planet to fusion reaction (and it was all stuff that you can do that with) the star would still exceed fusion output.

CAPTURE of that energy is another question, obviously. I've never figured out how to get the energy from the Dyson structure to the end-user.

 

[smartcooky]

A Dyson sphere would give you a LOT more power. Fusion on any planet has a maximum limit of the planet's volume, and the star in any planetary system will dominate the mass of the system; ergo, if you converted 100% of the planet to fusion reaction (and it was all stuff that you can do that with) the star would still exceed fusion output.

CAPTURE of that energy is another question, obviously. I've never figured out how to get the energy from the Dyson structure to the end-user.

The problem I have always had with the concept of a Dyson Sphere is its construction in relation to materials and power.

The materials needed to construct it would be massively times greater than what would be available on the planet of the civilisation building it. Would this be so even for a Dyson Ring. Perhaps the use of other bodies in the solar system would be required, and even then, would it be enough? Is there enough material in our solar system to make a solid and continuous ring around the Sun at a distance of 1AU?

Would the the power needed be more than the planetary civilisation could generate even with fusion? I suppose they might have sufficient available to reach the point where the Dyson Ring itself generates enough power to enable further construction and completion.

Has anyone ever done something like a quantity survey analysis to see what was required?

 

[BenBurch]

If they're anything like humans there could be an irrational reason to not use fusion power. Remember "You fight with light?" from Ringworld?

Last read that 40 years ago. I supposed I better dig it out again.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Last read that 40 years ago. I supposed I better dig it out again.

Short answer: Some people had made laser weapons verboten. Our Hero's laser flashlight almost gets him killed. Flashlight not totally like war laser, but simply being a laser made it "evil". That's an example of how humans could illogically make a viable system something that would never be used.

Now, I'm going to go have a nice ham steak for dinner.

 

[Dinwar]

Is there enough material in our solar system to make a solid and continuous ring around the Sun at a distance of 1AU?

For a Dyson sphere or ring, maybe not. For a fleet of panels in orbit around the star, though, you very well could have sufficient material. It'd be a nightmare to account for them interfering with one another gravitationally, but not an insurmountable one.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

For a Dyson sphere or ring, maybe not. For a fleet of panels in orbit around the star, though, you very well could have sufficient material. It'd be a nightmare to account for them interfering with one another gravitationally, but not an insurmountable one.

Why not start from scratch and get a designer system? Start in the Pillars of Creation where material is ... rather available ... and transmute some into ring material and some into a star. I mean, the Pillars are genning up whole solar systems as we speak.

 

[Davidm]

Why not start from scratch and get a designer system? Start in the Pillars of Creation where material is ... rather available ... and transmute some into ring material and some into a star. I mean, the Pillars are genning up whole solar systems as we speak.

They'd have to get there first, something the laws of physics make impossible or at least extremely difficult (you could maybe get robotic equipment there but your civilization, or even your species, might be long gone before your equipment arrives). It's much easier to work with what's available in your own system.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

They'd have to get there first, something the laws of physics make impossible or at least extremely difficult (you could maybe get robotic equipment there but your civilization, or even your species, might be long gone before your equipment arrives). It's much easier to work with what's available in your own system.

Robot fleet first, followed by cryo-transports with volunteers tucked away for revival with they get there. The robots start the process and the volunteers handle any problems and get to reproducing as soon as practical.

 

[BenBurch]

Robot fleet first, followed by cryo-transports with volunteers tucked away for revival with they get there. The robots start the process and the volunteers handle any problems and get to reproducing as soon as practical.

If we can manage the self-repairing robot starships in the first place, we won't have to send frozen humans - just the information needed for the nano constructors to build you from raw materials.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If we can manage the self-repairing robot starships in the first place, we won't have to send frozen humans - just the information needed for the nano constructors to build you from raw materials.

Would they be trained in their jobs?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Apologies in advance.