Dust cloud, or alien construction?

[Dinwar]

What is your criteria for when life should be considered "advanced"?

Generally speaking, I've found that this means "We've reached my ideal". Look at how quickly social issues are attached to an ostensibly technological question.

 

[Davidm]

...
Correct, an artificial phenomena is highly unlikely, though not impossible. An odd natural phenomena is more likely.
...

Of course, an advanced alien race would be an odd natural phenomena.

Are we "an odd natural phenomena"?

I was using catsmate's phrase "odd natural phenomena" to make a point. The point being that if we're considering unusual and unexpected phenomena (which I assume is what was meant by "odd natural phenomena") then surely an alien race fits that description. We wouldn't fit it since we're known to exist and, at least to us, aren't unexpected.

Of course, there are some unknown large number of possibilities other than "alien race" so the odds are still against it.

 

[BenBurch]

Let's just hope it's not one of these;

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Man, it would suck if it actually were alien technology. That's way too far away :/

Oh, if we ever do find some evidence of Alien life, do not expect it to be anywhere near us. It will be, almost certainly, very very far away for any earth technology ever be capable of getting us even remotely near.

 

[Davidm]

Oh, if we ever do find some evidence of Alien life, do not expect it to be anywhere near us. It will be, almost certainly, very very far away for any earth technology ever be capable of getting us even remotely near.

Europa (one of Jupiter's moons) may harbor life.

 

[The Atheist]

Last time I checked, SETI was getting hardly any telescope time, and so little funding for analysis that they've had to crowdsource even modest amounts of computer time.

Pleased to hear it. None would be ideal, but if they have the money to buy the time, go for it.

In spite of their limitations, SETI is pretty good at what they do--astronomy, not science fiction--and it makes sense to me that they would be asked to assist.

Really?

tell me about their discoveries, then. Crickey, blokes in their back yards find comets - I bet SETI's achievements are impressive.

What exactly are they saying, that offends you so much that they should STFU about it?

They don't offend me at all - I think they're pathetic and well beneath the level I could be offended by them. I rate them as little different from the clowns who drive across Nullabor Plain hoping an alien will abduct them: just another laughable group who can't have an imaginary sky-daddy so look for a
physical one instead.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

What is your criteria for when life should be considered "advanced"?

Colonizing its own solar system for a start.

 

[Dinwar]

Europa (one of Jupiter's moons) may harbor life.

We've found fossils on Mars (at least, I'm convinced--others are not, but it's a reasonable interpretation) and we have found evidence of life on Titan (evidence=/=proof; more is necessary before anyone, even the folks who proposed the model for metabolism, will accept that we have found it).

 

[Fudbucker]

Colonizing its own solar system for a start.

I would say a civilization reaches "advanced" stage when they possess means to cause their own extinction.

 

[Davidm]

We've found fossils on Mars (at least, I'm convinced--others are not, but it's a reasonable interpretation) and we have found evidence of life on Titan (evidence=/=proof; more is necessary before anyone, even the folks who proposed the model for metabolism, will accept that we have found it).

I've seen the very dubious claims about fossils on Mars, I haven't heard anything about Titan. Cite?

 

[Dinwar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Titan

It's likely enough to be worth examining, but it's not convincing. The idea of "some mineral catylist" causing this is one that I constantly mock. It's not an explination; it's pure fantasy, without evidence and without even a coherent model to predict it--if this weren't a potential find of alien life, such a "hypothesis" would have been laughed out of any conference and whoever proposed it would thereby sacrifice most of their credibility. It indicates our biase against the conclusion that we've found alien life--not that we won't accept this evidence as proof (everyone admits it's not), but rather the inclusion of such an unscientific statement into a scientific discussion.

As for Mars, the evidence I've seen hasn't exactly been dubious. It's been fairly convincing, in fact--though most people don't think of stromatolites as fossils. I will grant that I'm in favore of accepting this conclusion in part because if anyone wants to disprove me they'll have to provide some new and interesting data to support their interpretation. It's not unreasonable to accept that these formations are stromatolites; rather, the evidence isn't iron-clad proof (more copper-clad; maybe dead-soft brass clad ), so I'm being intentionally provocatvie here.

 

[acementhead]

I've seen the very dubious claims about fossils on Mars, I haven't heard anything about Titan. Cite?

The Sirens of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut. The best book ever written, by the way. Lots of people consider it fiction, but no it's future fact.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

I've seen the very dubious claims about fossils on Mars,

Have you seen this?

Opportunity Rover’s image analysis: Microbialites on Mars?

Or this paper that proposes a way to obtain additional evidence they may really be biological fossils or not?

Proterozoic Stromatolites and The Search for Life on Mars

Seems to me we have pretty good evidence, and a way to potentially falsify it. I don't understand what the problem is? Maybe some are too cautious to go out on a limb without further testing? Not sure. But if someone were to ask me if we had found evidence of life on Mars, my answer would have to be, "Yes, fossils." until further evidence falsifies it.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

While life on any of the moons in our solar system would be a major and scientifically truly awesome find, the reason I'd find this phenomena depressing is different.

IF it is truly alien construction and not, as is most likely something natural.
Then at some point a civilisation existed that was able to modify it's own solar system, something we can only dream of at the moment.
But we have no idea how long that has been visible. So not only is it likely that the ones building that are long gone, we do not see it on the stars closest to the one showing the phenomena.
That could mean that while they were technologically advanced enough to build a signal visible in the entire galaxy saying "look we existed!", but even they never left their own solar system. Meaning it is quite likely that we would also be confined to this solar system for the span of human existence.
The Sci-fi fan in me therefore fervently hopes that whatever it is, it is a natural effect.

 

[catsmate]

Generally speaking, I've found that this means "We've reached my ideal". Look at how quickly social issues are attached to an ostensibly technological question.

I'd go with "we've started looking for life elsewhere" or "we can survive, as a species, the destruction of our home planet".

I was using catsmate's phrase "odd natural phenomena" to make a point. The point being that if we're considering unusual and unexpected phenomena (which I assume is what was meant by "odd natural phenomena") then surely an alien race fits that description. We wouldn't fit it since we're known to exist and, at least to us, aren't unexpected.

Of course, there are some unknown large number of possibilities other than "alien race" so the odds are still against it.

True alien life, capable of constructing structures would be "odd". And presumably natural (no Berserkers need apply). Or maybe the aliens are the phenomena, giant space whales engaged in some weird mating thing...
But yes, a cause without intelligent/living involvement is probably more reasonable.

While life on any of the moons in our solar system would be a major and scientifically truly awesome find, the reason I'd find this phenomena depressing is different.

IF it is truly alien construction and not, as is most likely something natural.
Then at some point a civilisation existed that was able to modify it's own solar system, something we can only dream of at the moment.
But we have no idea how long that has been visible. So not only is it likely that the ones building that are long gone, we do not see it on the stars closest to the one showing the phenomena.
That could mean that while they were technologically advanced enough to build a signal visible in the entire galaxy saying "look we existed!", but even they never left their own solar system. Meaning it is quite likely that we would also be confined to this solar system for the span of human existence.
The Sci-fi fan in me therefore fervently hopes that whatever it is, it is a natural effect.

Well the images are from ~1,500 years ago, maybe they're busy colonising other systems.
Or wiped themselves out centuries ago.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I would say a civilization reaches "advanced" stage when they possess means to cause their own extinction.

Tell it to the Neanderthals.

 

[Ambrosia]

We've found fossils on Mars (at least, I'm convinced--others are not, but it's a reasonable interpretation)

What is the likelyhood of a (presumably rover) mission to Mars in the next 20 years or so to look for fossils?

We're pretty sure that at some point in history Mars had an atmosphere/water.

If life emerging is as 'easy' as it appears, (we know it happened on earth relatively quickly, even if we don't understand how) then it's reasonable to assume that if the right conditions were present on Mars for long enough life could have evolved there as well, and it's also possible that an earth impactor disturbed some of Earth that made it's way to Mars carrying microbes of some kind. (or vice versa)

Given the above then it seems reasonable to expect there to be fossils on Mars if it did have life on it at some point

What are the chances of going looking for some in the not too distant future?

How much of the knowledge of good places to look for fossils on earth carries over to Mars?

Is it possible to tell from fossils whether or not we were looking at the same life as on earth? i.e. assuming we did find Mars fossils, can we tell whether or not we're looking at a separate instance of life evolving or the same one as here?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We should wait until we have some indication that there are fossils on Mars.

 

[Dinwar]

What is the likelyhood of a (presumably rover) mission to Mars in the next 20 years or so to look for fossils?

Nil, unless we have a mission that puts boots on the ground. Paleontology isn't something you can do by photos alone, unfortunately.

How much of the knowledge of good places to look for fossils on earth carries over to Mars?

Many of the processes will be the same. You need to bury the stuff, so aquatic environments are preferable. Sandstorms would destroy the stuff, so anything that leaves the material exposed is out. Stuff like that.

Is it possible to tell from fossils whether or not we were looking at the same life as on earth?

Not with the fossils we've found so far. Stromatolites are trace fossils, not body fossils. Still, it'd be a pretty wild claim to say that life on Mars was the same as life on Earth. Similar, sure--weak panspermia (the idea that the building blocks of life arived from space) is more or less established at this point, meaning that it's reasonable to think that Martian life and Earth life started with the same building blocks. But there's a vast difference between "We use the same sugars and amino acids" and "Hey look, a Martian clam".

 

[alexi_drago]

While life on any of the moons in our solar system would be a major and scientifically truly awesome find, the reason I'd find this phenomena depressing is different.

IF it is truly alien construction and not, as is most likely something natural.
Then at some point a civilisation existed that was able to modify it's own solar system, something we can only dream of at the moment.
But we have no idea how long that has been visible. So not only is it likely that the ones building that are long gone, we do not see it on the stars closest to the one showing the phenomena.
That could mean that while they were technologically advanced enough to build a signal visible in the entire galaxy saying "look we existed!", but even they never left their own solar system. Meaning it is quite likely that we would also be confined to this solar system for the span of human existence.
The Sci-fi fan in me therefore fervently hopes that whatever it is, it is a natural effect.

Maybe they found a way to exist away from the proximity of a star, dismantled most of their dyson sphere to build their new world leaving some bits behind still in orbit and set off.