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Merged Due process in the US

bruto said:
I feel I should be bundling posts here, but I'll throw in another. The argument fails on several grounds. First that no crime should deprive anyone of due process. Second, that at the time of the deportation he was not here illegally, no matter what his history, and third that he was not just deported. He was not just sent back to El Salvador and dropped at the airport or something. Even if doing so would have resulted in his immediate arrest and imprisonment by the El Salvador authorities, it is simply not the same thing as what happened. He, and others like him, were extra-judicially convicted and sentenced to imprisonment in El Salvador. The decision to convict and imprison him was made in the United States by the United States.

Hercules has asserted that Garcia is the wrong person to defend, in part because he's such a bad guy that the public will reject the defense and the cause of justice will be set back. The remedy for this seems to be to let this one go, and try next time. I think that's a serious mistake. Next times are tentative and tend to stretch into more next times until it's too late.
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The highlighted is key.
 
bruto said:
I feel I should be bundling posts here, but I'll throw in another. The argument fails on several grounds. First that no crime should deprive anyone of due process. Second, that at the time of the deportation he was not here illegally, no matter what his history, and third that he was not just deported. He was not just sent back to El Salvador and dropped at the airport or something. Even if doing so would have resulted in his immediate arrest and imprisonment by the El Salvador authorities, it is simply not the same thing as what happened. He, and others like him, were extra-judicially convicted and sentenced to imprisonment in El Salvador. The decision to convict and imprison him was made in the United States by the United States.

Hercules has asserted that Garcia is the wrong person to defend, in part because he's such a bad guy that the public will reject the defense and the cause of justice will be set back. The remedy for this seems to be to let this one go, and try next time. I think that's a serious mistake. Next times are tentative and tend to stretch into more next times until it's too late.
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Hercules56 seems to be giving "natural justice" vibes to me. Maybe Abrego Garcia was denied due process but because of how he ended up with a right to stay in the US, he really belonged in in El Salvador so "natural justice" has been served.

IMO "natural justice" arguments are utter garbage.
 
theprestige said:
Due process doesn't mean the same process for everyone. It means the process due to each one based on the details of their case. The process due an illegal immigrant appealing for asylum isn't the same as the process due a citizen fighting a traffic ticket.
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That's the nature of the claim, not the nature of the claimant. That's subject-matter jurisdiction, which is an Article III concept, not due process. An immigrant litigating his immigration status goes to immigration court. That's one implementation of the due process requirement. That same immigrant litigating a traffic ticket goes to traffic court, not immigration court. The person is the same, but the nature of the claim is different and therefore the implementation of the process is different—tailored to the nature of the claim, not the properties of the claimant. Conversely, if there were any question about my citizenship, it would probably be litigated in immigration court even though I am a natural born American citizen.
 
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

U.S.-Born Attorney Says She Was Told To 'Immediately' Self-Deport In DHS Email

“It is time for you to leave the United States,” read the email reportedly sent to Nicole Micheroni, who is questioning how many others it was inappropriately sent to.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

A Massachusetts-born immigration attorney is questioning how many people are being wrongly instructed by the federal government to self-deport after she says she received an email from the Department of Homeland Security telling her to leave the U.S. “immediately” because her “parole” was terminated.
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theprestige said:
Being found guilty can subject them to an ICE hold and deportation. That's part of the process due to illegal immigrants, but not citizens and legal residents.
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No, that's the disposition of the claim, which again depends on the nature of the claim, not the properties of the claimant. Subject-matter jurisdiction! All jurisdictions have to obey the same rules (procedure, evidence) that guarantee due process, regardless of the subject matter. If the claim sounds in immigration, immigration courts have subject-matter jurisdiction. If a claim sounds in traffic, traffic court has subject matter jurisdiction. All this rhetoric saying that non-citizens somehow have a different due process entitlement is just dress-up for trying to substitute prejudice for the due process that's supposed to guard against prejudice.

An ICE hold and possible deportation is a separate claim, a separate court, a separate implementation of process, and a separate disposition of the claim. Again, it has to do with the claims made. Literally anyone can be challenged for their citizenship. It's just monumentally pointless to do it for someone who can easily prove to be a citizen.
 
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jimbob said:
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

U.S.-Born Attorney Says She Was Told To 'Immediately' Self-Deport In DHS Email

“It is time for you to leave the United States,” read the email reportedly sent to Nicole Micheroni, who is questioning how many others it was inappropriately sent to.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk www.huffingtonpost.co.uk
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It doesn't help the government's position that this person is the law partner of the law podcaster Matt Cameron ("Opening Arguments"). It shows just how slipshod and devoid of process the government's activities are.
 
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theprestige said:
Being found guilty can subject them to an ICE hold and deportation. That's part of the process due to illegal immigrants, but not citizens and legal residents.
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How are you defining "found guilty?" Because most of what we're talking about here is the deportation of people who have not been tried and found guilty in the usual sense. They are being deported because someone has decided they're guilty. And that (I presume you've opened a link or two by now) includes people who are here legally.
 
Resume said:
I don think it was an error. She's an immigration lawyer.
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Her theory is that she was counsel of record in one of the cases, and that the script-kiddies screwed up while scraping email addresses fro the case records. She is a natural-born U.S. citizen, so she is under no sort of "parole," which was a Biden-era status.
 
Another one.

A doctor born in the United States says she received an email from federal immigration authorities demanding that she leave the country immediately.

Lisa Anderson, a physician from Cromwell, Connecticut, told NBC Connecticut on Wednesday that she recently received a letter from the Department of Homeland Security telling her, “It is time for you to leave the United States."
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Immigration authorities have been pushing noncitizens to leave of their own volition, or “self-deport,” as the number of deportations remains at similar levels to last year.

But Anderson, 58, was born in Pennsylvania and is a U.S. citizen.

"The language seemed pretty threatening to whomever it might actually apply to," she said.

A senior DHS official told NBC News that the department has been issuing the notices to individuals who do not have lawful status to remain in the country.

"If a non-personal email — such as an American citizen contact — was provided by the alien, notices may have been sent to unintended recipients," the officials said. "CBP is monitoring communications and will address any issues on a case-by-case basis."
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Boy, they're sure making a lot of "mistakes."
 
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JayUtah said:
Her theory is that she was counsel of record in one of the cases, and that the script-kiddies screwed up while scraping email addresses fro the case records. She is a natural-born U.S. citizen, so she is under no sort of "parole," which was a Biden-era status.
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The wording if the mass email is long. It starts out that you are on parole. Later on it says that if you have "later" resolved it, fine. Like...they have no info on your status?
 
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JayUtah said:
Her theory is that she was counsel of record in one of the cases, and that the script-kiddies screwed up while scraping email addresses fro the case records. She is a natural-born U.S. citizen, so she is under no sort of "parole," which was a Biden-era status.
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I don't think it's going to ber very long until ICE detains one of these "mistakes."
 
bruto said:
How are you defining "found guilty?" Because most of what we're talking about here is the deportation of people who have not been tried and found guilty in the usual sense. They are being deported because someone has decided they're guilty.
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Being found guilty of a criminal offense is a judgment in criminal court—the same criminal court as citizens are subject to. Having been convicted of a crime makes someone subject to removal from the country if they are also an undocumented immigrant. That's a separate proceeding in a separate court, according to a separate claim that will have a separate disposition. In theory anyone can be challenged in immigration court as removable because of a criminal conviction, but since there's a trivial defense for citizens to that challenge, it would be irresponsible to bring it.
 
Tero said:
The wording if the mass email is long. It starts out that you ate on parole. Later on it says that if you have "later" resolved it, fine. Like...they have mo knfo on your status?
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In immigration law, parole means a discretionary decision to allow a non-citizen to remain in the country.
 
Tero said:
The wording if the mass email is long. It starts out that you are on parole. Later on it says that if you have "later" resolved it, fine. Like...they have no info on your status?
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That's one of the things that will make this hard to defend in court. Not only is the email being sent inappropriately to citizens, but it tries to apply blanket language. Due process must be individualized. A determination that is governed by due process must present and defend evidence in each individual case. You don't get to include language that conditions the disposition on facts that have not been tried. In short, the language that applies variously to the recipient depending upon actions the sender does not know to have been omitted or taken is prima facie evidence that the process was not individualized and that the foisted disposition fails for due process.
 
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