• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Drunk driver, Drunk woman having sex- Double standard?

casebro

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Jun 14, 2005
Messages
19,788
If somebody who drives while drunk is to be considered a murderer, then how come a women who has sex while drunk is considered a victim? Shouldn't she be considered the rapist? Or is the typical drunk driver a victim too? Assuming they both willfully got blotto, the driver to 'willfully lose control' of his car, her to 'willfully lose control' of her body. Yet she is considered a victim, the driver is considered a felon. Hmmm???
 
I'd need to see the source referring to the incident in such a way before I could form an opinion.
 
To what do you refer, specifically? Rape convictions are low, and if the woman was extremely drunk during the alleged rape, it's extremely difficult for her to prove she didn't consent.

But, it alarms me slightly that you might be insinuating a drunk woman is somehow allowing herself to be raped. In the civilised world, I'm pretty sure you're not meant to rape someone regardless of how drunk they are. A woman being blotto doesn't make her fair game.

A woman shouldn't have to stay sober to ensure she doesn't get raped. The default position is 'don't rape'.
 
Last edited:
Drunk women can be raped, you know

(I wasn't giving my blessing, BTW, just stating a fact)

It's just difficult to know when a crime's been committed as opposed to when they're lying their faces off to cover up their terrible behaviour of the night before.
 
The vast majority of women who have sex while drunk aren't considered victims.

I think if you clarify your question so that it's accurate you may find you answer your own question.
 
If somebody who drives while drunk is to be considered a murderer, then how come a women who has sex while drunk is considered a victim?

Somebody who drives while drunk is considered a murder because he did something to someone else (killed them). That's significantly different than having something done to you (like being raped).

Shouldn't she be considered the rapist?

Not unless she's rapes someone. Just like the drunk driver could be considered a victim if another driver ran a red light and hit him and killed him.
 
If a woman decides to have sex whilst drunk, she has not been raped, if a woman is raped when drunk, then she is a victim of rape.

Conflating the situations only causes confusion.
 
Maybe this will clarify it:

If you get drunk, you're (generally) not doing anything illegal just because you got drunk (unless you're underage). Being drunk does not mean that anything illegally done to you by someone else is your fault.

If you get drunk and drive a car, you are doing something illegal. Anything you do while driving the car is your fault.

If you get drunk, pick up a gun and kill someone with it, you're a murderer. If you get drunk and someone else picks up a gun and kills you with it you are a victim.

If you get drunk and rape someone, you are a rapist. If you get drunk and someone rapes you, you are a victim.
 
If anyone wonders where this comes from, it's an offshoot of the "But... it's a cool shirt" thread, in which Lost Angeles pointed out that a shirt that says "No Means No. (Except when I'm drunk)" was withdrawn from sale, and I pointed out that it was pretty damned offensive:

Well you can continue to feel superior to him and sit in moral judgement over him all over a stupid t-shirt that was, at worst, in bad taste. And you mocked the idea of being "overly sensitive".... wow..

So you don't find a t-shirt that says "No Means No. Except when I'm drunk" offensive? You don't think it's worth pointing out that selling t-shirts advocating rape and murder is a pretty disgusting thing to be doing?

You might call that "over-sensitive". I call it "decent", thanks very much.

Let me point out a double standard here.

If somebody who drives while drunk is to be considered a murderer, then how come a women who has sex while drunk is considered a victim? Shouldn't she be considered the rapist? Or is the typical drunk driver a victim too? Assuming they both willfully got blotto, the driver to 'willfully lose control' of his car, her to 'willfully lose control' of her body. Yet she is considered a victim, the driver is considered a felon. Hmmm...


So let's get this in context, so we can see the ideological underpinnings of this thread: It's not just that women who are raped when drunk are criminals, it's that women who are raped when drunk are funny.

Anyone else find that a pretty repulsive viewpoint, or am I "over-sensitive"?
 
Some of my female friends have complained that they were 'taken advantage of' when both parties had been intoxicated. I suggested to these friends that if they believe they were raped, they should press charges. Two of my friends who had the 'victim mentality' after nights of unplanned, intoxicated fun later referred to it as 'a mistake' on their part, and one of the women is now married to the "jerk who took advantage" of her on their 2nd date, after the two had shared more than a few glasses of wine. As a non-drinker, I have a hard time having too much sympathy, as they did make the choice to consume so much alcohol, knowing full well they would become drunk and that good judgment would be impaired. Of course, I am not talking about non-consensual sex at all. Rape is wrong in any circumstance.

I understand that some people do prey on intoxicated women (bars, nightclubs, elsewhere...) and intentionally take advantage of them, but I do not think the majority of men out there (at least the ones I know) have that intention.

I think people of any gender should take responsibility for themselves, and if they feel a need to become so intoxicated, then do things they later regret, well... I see several easy solutions to avoid the whole situation.

I have often wondered if some of the victim mentality some women portray after intoxicated sex may have something to do with the reality that women can get pregnant and men can't. People I have known who have conceived after a "drunken fling" where neither bothered with birth control, etc. have seemed to wholly blame the other party.

I hope I don't come off as a jerk in this post! I used to drink alcohol and understand how easy it is to throw caution to the wind while impaired, but I think impaired or not, people should still be accountable for their own actions, assuming becoming intoxicated was their choice.
 
Last edited:
volatile, I agree with you that the "No Means No. (Except when I'm drunk)" t-shirt is very offensive!

Perhaps I misunderstood what casebro meant in the original post... I didn't take it to mean non-consensual sex when casebro wrote "Assuming they both willfully got blotto, the driver to 'willfully lose control' of his car, her to 'willfully lose control' of her body. Yet she is considered a victim, the driver is considered a felon."

I actually don't see the connection between driving while drunk and having sex while drunk.

I could be way off, but I thought casebro was perhaps speaking from a direct or indirect personal experience. For example, perhaps if casebro is male, he may have had consensual sex with an intoxicated female who then accused him of taking advantage of her (I know several men who have been in this situation, so maybe that's why it came to my mind). Maybe casebro knows a female who had done that and told casebro of her experience.

I hope I haven't offended you, casebro, I don't mean to assume your gender or anything else about your personal life. I was just trying to show that I didn't take your original post to mean rape, but I could be wrong and perhaps you did mean non-consensual sex. If that's the case, I apologize for how insensitive my previous post must have seemed!
 
If somebody who drives while drunk is to be considered a murderer, then how come a women who has sex while drunk is considered a victim? Shouldn't she be considered the rapist? Or is the typical drunk driver a victim too? Assuming they both willfully got blotto, the driver to 'willfully lose control' of his car, her to 'willfully lose control' of her body. Yet she is considered a victim, the driver is considered a felon. Hmmm???


I must have missed the day in law school when they taught that a driver has an inherent right of privacy and liberty in his own car and every inch of the roadway.

I must also have missed the day when they taught that rape (a crime that necessarily has a perpetrator acting upon a victim) was the same as drunk driving (a crime where there may be no victim whatsoever). That would be a logical first step before attempting to create an analogy between the actors in the two crimes.

All in all, one of the most illogical posts I have ever read.
 
If somebody who drives while drunk is to be considered a murderer, then how come a women who has sex while drunk is considered a victim? Shouldn't she be considered the rapist? Or is the typical drunk driver a victim too? Assuming they both willfully got blotto, the driver to 'willfully lose control' of his car, her to 'willfully lose control' of her body. Yet she is considered a victim, the driver is considered a felon. Hmmm???


that is so SO disgusting. :jaw-dropp what the hell, man? did you actually think about this before posting?

cluetrain: last stop you. a raped woman doesnt ****ing decide to have sex, jesus. i cant believe you need this explained to you. you seem to be suggesting that women should expect to be raped if they drink. why are you only applying this to women anyway? do you think men never get raped by other men after drinking? are men asking for it when they drink too?
 
I regret having posted on this thread. Anyone reading what I have posted, please disregard what I've written - re-reading this post, I believe I misunderstood the original post. I disagree with casebro's original post, although I can't quite figure out exactly what point casebro is trying to make (or what kind of discussion they were trying to start...)

:confused:
 
I disagree with casebro's original post, although I can't quite figure out exactly what point casebro is trying to make (or what kind of discussion they were trying to start...)

:confused:


volatiles post covers it pretty well. the jist of the op to me is that women are asking to be raped if they drink, as if the rapist has no responsibility in the situation.

i know you said to disregard your post, but there is one part i want to address:
Some of my female friends have complained that they were 'taken advantage of' when both parties had been intoxicated. I suggested to these friends that if they believe they were raped, they should press charges.

i dont know if youve ever talked to anyone who went to the police, but they are often real jerks about it and if you were drinking while something happened... chances are they will blame you or be really uncaring about the whole thing. even then it is so, so hard to get a conviction and the trials are awful for rape victims. I can completely understand a woman who was raped not wanting to try to press charges. a pretty universal experience of sexual assault victims is to blame themselves anyway. not saying that is what happened to your friends, but I just felt the need to bring that up upon reading your post.
 
Last edited:
I regret having posted on this thread. Anyone reading what I have posted, please disregard what I've written - re-reading this post, I believe I misunderstood the original post. I disagree with casebro's original post, although I can't quite figure out exactly what point casebro is trying to make (or what kind of discussion they were trying to start...)

:confused:
I think your first post contributed something - it may help to further clarify the difference between rape and women who while drunk consensually engage in sex they would not have engaged in (and thus regret) while sober. While it may seem obvious, I hope that casebro has not understood this difference, and that the OP was the result of this misunderstanding.

I suggest to casebro to clarify whether this is the case. I could see a reasonably interesting discussion about why (not to mention if) those women are considered victims, and how it differentiates from men. If the OP does indeed mean to question who the victim is in actual rape of a drunk person, I can only hope that the responses will make the author come to his senses.
 
volatiles post covers it pretty well. the jist of the op to me is that women are asking to be raped if they drink, as if the rapist has no responsibility in the situation.


I don't know how I didn't see that when I first read the op. Thanks for the insight! Now I REALLY regret my previous posts, trying to discuss the wrong topic! Not the best way for me to get off on the right foot on the forum... :(

Is it possible to delete one's own posts in a thread, due to embarrassment?
 
Ok. If we're talking about a woman who gets drunk, agrees to have sex with a guy, then regrets it, and decides that she was raped because she wouldn't have agreed if she was sober, then hell no she's not a victim. At least not a rape victim.

If we're talking about a woman who is barely coherent and is mumbling "no" then hell yes she's a rape victim.
 
If there was a real point to be made in this thread, it was lost in the utter clumsiness(at best) of the OP. When you say "rape", we assume you mean "rape," and not some other sort of sexual activity.

So, can we maybe lock/delete/ignore this whole thread, and maybe casebro would like to start again, with a clearer statement of direction and intent?
 
It's a difficult issue with a lot of gray area.

I can't really add much, aside from a few personal observations and anecdotes.

Anecdote:

I know a girl who, when she was in her late teens and early 20s, would castigate men in general, using the number of times she'd been "raped" (something that apparently happened to her quite frequently) as a reason. I put raped in quotes, because the actual situation is not quite the standard definition of the term. See, she liked to drink. A lot. She was quite the flirt when she was sober, she liked winding guys up just so that she could reject them (yes, she was and is somewhat psychotic that way). It was an ego trip that she liked taking quite often.

The problem she had was that when she got drunk, she became much more aggressive, would glom onto anything with a penis, and never got around to saying no, even if she had earlier in the night. (I've had to peel her off me a couple times when she was hammered; and anyone who's actually met me will know just how drunk someone has to get to glom onto me.)

So imagine you're a guy, with this really cute girl coming on to you, then telling you no; then coming back a couple hours later and doing just about everything short of screwing you right there on the dance floor. Imagine that you've had a few as well.

Part of her problem was that she also couldn't handle her alcohol. She couldn't just take one or two drinks and leave it at that, she inevitably drank excessively, and typically got puking drunk at some point.

So it ended up with her describing any sexual encounter she had when drunk, and later regretted, as "rape", despite the fact that she initiated pretty much all of it.

I've known a few others who had a similar attitude. Any sexual encounter had under the influence of alcohol (or any other drug, as many of them use quite a number of recreational substances) and later regretted was termed "rape", regardless of who initiated it, or how consenting they were at the time.

Other comments:

Yes, I realize that

Some regions have either proposed or implemented (I'm not sure about the latter, though I am sure about the former) laws which would define any sexual intercourse with a female who has been drinking as rape. I know a few learning institutions which have implemented private polices of this nature; although I don't know if any of their students have been disciplined because of it. They do not have similar policies regarding males, and consider males to invariably be the aggressor in any sexual encounter.

I know that there are quite a number of males -- some of which I am personally aquainted with, unfortunately -- who do "prey" on intoxicated females. It's reprehensible, but I'm not sure I'd necessarily consider it rape; since there is typically no force involved. The problem is that the effects of alcohol are well-understood, and anyone who drinks should know, unless they've been living under a rock for their entire lives previously, that alcohol, and indeed any other drug, will remove inhibitions, and impair judgement and ability to resist. Becoming intoxicated in an environment with a significant potential for this sort of incident is simply irresposible, and negates any claim to "rape" unless there was actual force involved. That applies regardless of the gender of the "victim". There is also definitely a double standard here. When it happens to a female, the inevitable response is a backlash against the male, and accusations of rape. When it happens to a male, the inevitable response ranges from comments about poor judgement, to simply laughing it off.

The problem is that it can sometimes be very difficult to distinguish that sort of situation, from a true "date rape" or predatory behaviour. The later invariably involves some sort of coercion, or at least trickery. For example, a person who spikes someone else's drink, so that the victim is consuming far more alcohol than they intend to and are aware of at the time. The victim might think they are drinking responsibly, and many only have one or two actual drinks; or may not be intending to drink alcohol at all, and are not aware that they are, in fact, consuming it. And yes, it is possible to make drinks that contain substantial amounts of undetectable alcohol. These typically also contain substantial amounts of sugar, and often dairly products as well, both of which mask the presence of alcohol. Drinks of this sort are typically referred to as "panty droppers", because their purpose behind their creation is just that, to enable someone to drink enough to become irresponsibly intoxicated, without noticing how much they're drinking. (And this is not always predatory, I've known several young females who deliberately drink those concotions because they "want to get drunk, but can't stand the taste of alcohol".)

Then there is the issue that someone else pointed out. Those who say "no", yet act "yes". Most common among young religious types who believe it's wrong, but want to do it anyway. They put themselves in situations where it's quite clear that sex is the desired end, but try to weasel out of responsibility by saying "only to this point and no farther"; despite the fact that that point is where the hormones kick in and judgement turns off, and they put up no resistance when it does go past that point, aside from a weak "We shouldn't be doing this" (or some variant thereof). By saying no initially, yet allowing themselves to be "subjected to" intercourse, without resisting; and they can rationalize that they're not responsible for anything that happens. They're the "victims", not active participants; and therefore havent committed any "sin". Again, something I've seen too often (and I actually have come pretty close to playing the victim, myself, on one occasion).

There is way too much emotional blather around this issue; and any attempt at discussion invariably results in the sort of pointless and obfuscatory personal attacks and double standards that this thread has already devolved into.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom