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Dreadnoughtus schrani: complete skeleton found.

Reference to the 35% oxygen rich atmosphere. :rolleyes: Sherman tank: 30 tons. A neutron star is so dense that one teaspoon (5 millilitres) of its material would have a mass over 5×1012 kg or 5,500,000,000 tons. About 900 pyramids of Giza or 7.69 x1010 dreadnoughti.


http://geology.com/usgs/amber/

[see chart]
This chart shows a major decrease in oxygen content in the atmosphere from 35 percent to the present day level of 21 percent. This decrease occured about the same time that the dinosaurs disappeared - 65 million years ago. USGS image.

Analyses of the gases in these bubbles show that the Earth's atmosphere, 67 million years ago, contained nearly 35 percent oxygen compared to present levels of 21 percent. Results are based upon more than 300 analyses by USGS scientists of Cretaceous, Tertiary, and recent-age amber from 16 world sites.* The oldest amber in this study is about 130 million years old.
 
Saw this in a few places. This is seriously cool! Given the trouble I had with a plaster jacket today, I have a whole new appreciation for putting one on a bone that size!


Let's be fair--practically NO skeleton is complete.

William Parcher said:
Yeah but back then the days were 81 hours long.
Other way 'round. Coral studies (used because corals excrete growth rings in very predictable cycles) show that days were shorter in the past. In the Devonian, if I recall correctly, the year was about 400 days long.

As far as food goes, it depends on how the animal heated itself. The elephant calculation up-thread assumes that sauropods were warm-blooded. If they were cold-blooded, they'd have eaten much, much less. Odds are, however, that they were something we don't have a name for, so it's really hard to tell. Also, most sauropods as I understand it were herd animals, often segregated by age--so they'd have a very vast territory (hadrosaurs crossed from Montana to Alaska and back, and sauropods could likely have had even bigger ranges), but they wouldn't necessraily come back to the same area again this lifetime. This would also impact what could prey upon them. As youths, they'd be relatively easy targets; however, in a herd they had a better chance fo survival (think fish--the odds of any one fish in a school being eaten are pretty low, even if the school attracts more predators). As they grew their numbers would deminish, but so would what could prey upon them. At full size, I doubt much would be eating a healthy sauropod; predation would likely be limited to the sick or the dead.

Olowkow said:
I seem to remember that some of these big ones had another brain to control the tail. I don't recall if that was disproved or not.
No evidence for this has been found as far as I know. Such neural arangements are not uncommon in the animal kingdom--for example, roundwomrs have neural ganglia in each segment. This doesn't happen in any Chordate I know of, however, and there's no fossil evidence for such a feature (such evidence would include large voids similar to those in the skull, only located in the hips; large holes in the bones to allow for large nerve clusters to move through; large holes that allow blood vessles to move through; scars in the bone; and a few other featurs).

Really? I thought that was an accepted hypothesis. Do you have more info? If not elevated oxygen levels, then what?
Oxygen levels are tricky to sort out in the fossil record (isotopic data has to be disentangled from other data recorded by teh same isotopic groups--imagine if a doctor got a single wiggly line titled "patient health" and had to figure out what their blood pressure was from it, and you get a sense of paleoclimetology). The other problem is that paleoclimatology for that time period is focused on the Ocean Anoxic Events--whenever something really big and exciting happens in the rock record, everyone wants to study that, which results in some rather deplorable data gaps. I have two different books attempting to correct exactly that phenomenon in regards to Southern California paleontology. That said, there seems to have been less oxygen in the atmospher in the Mesozoic, or at least for parts of it and in certain places.
 
Looking at rough figures for an elephant diet, 500 lbs of food and 50 gallons of water a day, the elephant eats 5% of his body weight and drinks 1 gallon per 200 lb. If this beast's metabolism is anywhere close, he would need over 3 tons of food (about 100 small 80 lb. bales of hay) and 650 gallons of water per day.

Metabolic rate scales as Mass3/4.

If it's 12 times larger than an elephant, then we'd expect it to only need to eat 123/4 times as much, or about 6.5 times as much food as an elephant.

(There's some disagreement about that 3/4 power, and a reasonable argument that it should be 2/3, in which case we get about 5 times as much food as an elephant)
 
Bigger and bigger sauropods keep getting discovered. Where is it going to end? Because every biggest one is declared to be the biggest that could possibly exist; then they find a bigger one.

It's like the pterosaurs, that everyone says after new discoveries, Anything larger couldn't get into the sir. But then something larger turns up. The current ones are about the size of giraffes, I believe, and flew about like budgies.
 
The article talks about a weaponised tail, but I can't see what about it (apart from the size) would make it weaponised?

Push it. Push it. Puh push it real good!

And now I have that in my head all morning...

Doo-dee, doo-dee, doo-dee, do, diddle-diddle.
 
The article talks about a weaponised tail, but I can't see what about it (apart from the size) would make it weaponised?

You have to look close, but there's a 8-foot long stinger near the end.

(Oh, and when the tail lifts, the gaseous products of all the digested vegetable roughage emerges - devastating!)
 
Fantastic thread. I know this made the mainstream news, but I wouldn't have noticed it without this thread.
 
Well, it should have feared something; it's not around anymore.

Well, as the architect of that legendary battleship might have said, "... it would dread nought, but God."

An appropriate name for the beast indeed.
 
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Metabolic rate scales as Mass3/4.

If it's 12 times larger than an elephant, then we'd expect it to only need to eat 123/4 times as much, or about 6.5 times as much food as an elephant.

(There's some disagreement about that 3/4 power, and a reasonable argument that it should be 2/3, in which case we get about 5 times as much food as an elephant)
Interesting. Then there is the question of efficiency of the digestive system, and as Dinwar says, it would depend on whether he was cold/warm blooded.

Total length was 85 meters! Make that 85 FEET! oops!:o

Wiki article: Dreadnoughtus
 
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Bigger and bigger sauropods keep getting discovered. Where is it going to end? Because every biggest one is declared to be the biggest that could possibly exist; then they find a bigger one.

Except that most of the time when they're declared the biggest, it's not entirely true. In this case, Dreadnoughtus is claimed to be the dinosaur with the largest calculable weight; ie. this skeleton is complete enough to be pretty sure it definitely was around that size. However, there are already several other dinosaurs thought to be significantly larger, we just don't have complete enough skeletons to be quite as sure about it. Argentinosaurus, one of the best known but still probably not the biggest, is thought to have been as big as 100 tons, nearly double the size of this new one. And that's just for weight, Dreadnoughtus doesn't even make the top 10 for length (it doesn't even make it to Wiki's list of longest sauropods at all), and is shorter than some very well known dinosaurs like Diplodocus which have been known about since the 19th century.

This is an interesting discovery precisely because the skeleton is so much more complete than usual, but it probably doesn't push the boundaries for size any further than we already knew. Where does it end? It will be interesting to see if we ever find any land animal above 100 tons or 40m long. There's currently only one candidate for both of those benchmarks, and the only fossils were lost back before we really knew much about dinosaurs so estimates probably aren't all that reliable.
 
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The article talks about a weaponised tail, but I can't see what about it (apart from the size) would make it weaponised?
The muscle attachment sites are multiple times normal size, which indicates that the muscles were too. So they could generate a lot of force and be used as clubs... no spikes or blades, but just blunt impact can be a big deal when your main threats are bipeds with unimpressive arms.
 
Metabolic rate scales as Mass3/4.

If it's 12 times larger than an elephant, then we'd expect it to only need to eat 123/4 times as much, or about 6.5 times as much food as an elephant.

(There's some disagreement about that 3/4 power, and a reasonable argument that it should be 2/3, in which case we get about 5 times as much food as an elephant)

Again, this assumes that the sauropod was endothermic. This assumption may or may not be true. We are reasonably certain it's true, broadly speaking, for therapods, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true for other groups.

Delvo said:
The muscle attachment sites are multiple times normal size, which indicates that the muscles were too. So they could generate a lot of force and be used as clubs... no spikes or blades, but just blunt impact can be a big deal when your main threats are bipeds with unimpressive arms.
Arms aren't really relevant. Ask any prey from a raptor (in the literal sense of the word, that is). That said, you're right about the tail--sauropod tails were massive, could move at high velocities (how high is subject to debate), and were hitting things that generally weren't armored. There's a reason bullets aren't as sharp as knives--after a certain speed, it simply doesn't matter enough to make a difference. At a high enough speed, you can get cut with a steel cable. Of course, it'd be a particularly stupid therapod that came at one of these from behind, and the trackways we have (that I'm aware of; I'm not an ichnofossil guy) suggest the therapods attacked from the sides.

Cuddles said:
There's currently only one candidate for both of those benchmarks, and the only fossils were lost back before we really knew much about dinosaurs so estimates probably aren't all that reliable.
First, let me say that I doubt every measure of size we have for dinosaurs other than the size of the bones and a rough estimate of muscle size. Check out "shrinkwrapping dinosaurs" to see why. Or, check out Megaloceros, and in particular its hump.

Regarding the quote: I can attest to the fragility of fossils preserved in certain kinds of mudstone. Nothing is more heartbreaking than seeing a fossil you've worked so carefully to prep crumble into nothing, and some seem to do it if you breath on them too hard. I hate dealing with those. Plus, there are other things that can kill a fossil. Pyrite disease is the bane of museum curators dealing with dinosaur bones--the pyrite reacts with the air and moisture and creates a new mineral phase, which spreads through the fossil and basically turns it into powder. Other sorts of reactions can also take place. There are VERY strict rules about curating fossils in most museums, including what types of paper you can use for the labels, to prevent exactly that issue. Finally, the World Wars were NOT kind to my dicipline. A lot of fossils--including unique species and type specimens--were lost in bombing raids. I know the loss of paleontological data doesn't compare to the human loss, but it's still a major impact of those wars that we have yet to fully recover from. If the researchers loaned the fossil to someone in Europe, it may be part of a bombturbation feature at this point (yes, that's a real scientific term).
 
Arms aren't really relevant.
Most bipeds I know use them to "break" a fall and/or to get back up much more efficiently than they could without them. The effect would be not on how deadly the animal is in his/her preferred attack mode, or even how likely (s)he is to get knocked over by a tail club, but the consequences of getting knocked over.

Of course, that was just looking at the tails as an anti-predator weapon. It could be that they were for use against each other, but they'd be less effective at actually harming each other as opposed to really annoying each other... which, for intra-species fighting, sometimes seems to be the point.
 
Delvo said:
Most bipeds I know...
This statement right here may be a tad problimatic when dealing with taxa that haven't existed for 65 million years. ;)
 
Again, this assumes that the sauropod was endothermic. This assumption may or may not be true. We are reasonably certain it's true, broadly speaking, for therapods, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true for other groups.

Sure that's true, and my post was too simplistic. The correction for a "cold blooded" animal would leave it's metabolic rate lower at the same mass, and I was mainly trying to point out that the relationship is not linear. So instead of 6x we might get 5x or 4 x an elephant's metabolic rate, but certainly the 12x of the other poster is an overestimate.

Even with a different metabolism, while the actual value of mass/metabolic rate will change, the slope of the graph (relative to other animals with the same type of metabolism) remains the same:
(Please note the logarithmic scaling of this graph)

I10-83-metabolic.jpg

(from here:http://universe-review.ca/R10-35-metabolic.htm,)
 
I get one reason why it's that slope for endotherms (because larger objects are slower to change temperature and slower to dissipate internally-generated heat), but have never gotten why it would vary with size at all for non-endotherms. Seeing the comparison with unicellular organisms made me briefly think it could relate to the different amounts of energy required to move objects of different mass, but the scaling of surface interactions would throw off any direct effect from mass scaling, I don't see anything specifying that the organisms in question are motile, and even motile organisms spend a bunch of energy on functions other than physical movement.
 
I get one reason why it's that slope for endotherms (because larger objects are slower to change temperature and slower to dissipate internally-generated heat), but have never gotten why it would vary with size at all for non-endotherms. Seeing the comparison with unicellular organisms made me briefly think it could relate to the different amounts of energy required to move objects of different mass, but the scaling of surface interactions would throw off any direct effect from mass scaling, I don't see anything specifying that the organisms in question are motile, and even motile organisms spend a bunch of energy on functions other than physical movement.

I think there's two apparent mechanisms, one is the first you mentioned (heat is dissipated across surface area, but produced by volume, basically), and while this may be more important in endotherms, any sort of metabolism will produce heat and thus require it's dissipation. So, at a certain size, endothermic or not, a particular metabolism will not cause an animal to overheat, and if scaled linearly at another size it will lead to said animal burning up from the inside, and thus won't be found in nature. But, from what I read on wikipedia yesterday that leads to a 2/3 power scaling law.

The other mechanism is the distribution of nutrients. Animals eat (and breathe) from their surface, but both oxygen and nutrients need to get to all of the body's various tissues to be used in it's metabolism. The efficiency of this transport based on a fractal circulatory system whose "surface area" scales more efficiently than that surface area of skin, but still not as quickly as mass, and this leads to a 3/4 power scaling law.

(This is mostly from memory and a tiny bit of double checking I did before posting yesterday so I may have made some errors, but I think the basic idea is correct)
 

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