Drag Shows!!

[Thermal]

In the same way that an actor or a musician is something you are.

...right. A musician is still a musician, even when she is not playing. Like even when she is sleeping, she is a sleeping musician. A drag queen is a drag queen even when not in drag. Unlike a once a year dress up thing that you could take or leave because it's not what you are.

You have a point you'd like to make?

 

[Robin]

Of course the garments drag queens wear on stage are costumes, I think the thread is getting a bit silly when people start denying that.

I mean they usually have Velcro tags for quick change. Successful drag queens employ costume designers.

 

[Robin]

...right. A musician is still a musician, even when she is not playing. Like even when she is sleeping, she is a sleeping musician. A drag queen is a drag queen even when not in drag. Unlike a once a year dress up thing that you could take or leave because it's not what you are.

You have a point you'd like to make?

The point is of course that the garments drag queens wear on stage are costumes.

You appeared to be denying that.

Did you have a point?

And of course you can take a break from being a drag queen, just as you can take a break from being an actor.

 

[Thermal]

The point is of course that the garments drag queens wear on stage are costumes.

You appeared to be denying that.

Did you have a point?

And of course you can take a break from being a drag queen, just as you can take a break from being an actor.

If you are going to start equivocating "costumes" as being the same whether a performer's stage outfit or a ******* monster costume for Halloween, then we have pranced beyond silly and are bounding bravely into farce.

I'm not going to stoop to explaining the meaning of "costume" in context here. We are not children.

 

[Robin]

Darat, what do you see as the difference between:

• A male actor performing a female role
• A male actor impersonating a well-known female personality in as true and genuine a fashion as possible
• A drag act

Do you acknowledge any difference in those at all?

Do you acknowledge a difference between a tabby cat, a Siamese cat and a cat?

 

[Lithrael]

I would actually put a serious fantasy LARPer’s favorite vampire character on equal ideological footing with a typical well developed drag persona. They are both costumed characters being fully played by a performer who has invested a lot of work and love into them, yet not with the intention of literally passing as either a vampire or a woman.

Can you imagine if there was a drag queen roleplaying game with combat? The DRAMA of someone’s drag persona getting killed in combat and having to start a new one? Heads would roll! XD

 

[Robin]

If you are going to start equivocating "costumes" as being the same whether a performer's stage outfit or a ******* monster costume for Halloween, then we have pranced beyond silly and are bounding bravely into farce.

I'm not going to stoop to explaining the meaning of "costume" in context here. We are not children.

I think you really do need to make the distinction clear here.

The costumes my mum and dad made for us when we went into fancy dress comps at Butlins were real works of art (They honed their skills making costumes and props for a touring theatre company). Same with the costumes my wife made for our kids for book days when they were younger.

What distinction would you make between these and the costumes a drag queen wears other than that they are used for professional or semi professional purposes?

 

[Robin]

I would go so far as to suggest my wife's Commedia Del Artes costumes for the school's Italian themed day were of a higher standard than the average pub drag show costumes.

 

[Robin]

It'd be stellar of you'd stop putting words in my mouth. I have pointedly made no such assumption.

You might want to go re-read your own post before you start making accusations of putting words imouths.

Here, your words, not mine:

Drag viewers of the forum: what are you getting from seeing men in dresses that you are not getting from women in workboots and hardhats?

Why would you think that someone would get the same thing from women in workwear as they would from a drag performance?
[

We are not talking about work clothes.

Work boots and hard hats are work wear.

Women in work boots and hard hats are what you said. And you were asking why people didn't get the same from that as they get from drag performances.

Skip the hard hat if it's throwing you off.

And the work boots. Which exhausts your analogy.

Not my fault if you expressed yourself badly.

If you meant women in.men's clothes you should have said so.

But you post implies that you think that women in hard hats and work clothes are wearing men's clothes.

 

[Stacyhs]

I've actually seen interviews with him at home and on this Drag Race show, and like virtually all women, no he is not wearing full makeup and heels while watching Netflix. What odd questions you ask.

He's not a woman nor does he identify as one so why are you comparing him to women?

You said:

Benny Hill frocked up to put on a show. RuPaul is living the life. I think the difference is real.

If he's "living the life" then that implies he must be dressing in drag at home. That's why I asked how you know what he wears at home. That's not an odd question to follow up on your statement.

 

[Robin]

If people are saying that drag queens should not mock women with offensive caricatures, I agree. (Just as stand up comedians should not mock women with offensive caricatures and feminist should not, as they often do, mock women with offensive caricatures).

And certainly there are drag acts that do this

But anyone who bases their opposition to drag on the basis that drag is about mocking women with offensive caricatures is simply being dishonest or uninformed.

In general drag queens have the highest regard for women and in particular the kind of.women they try to portray

It would be quite valid to criticise drag while allowing that the intention is not to mock women.

Just as it is quite valid to criticise Al Jolson while allowing that he had the highest regard for black people and saw his performances as a way of showing solidarity and that he did much to break down barriers for black performers by insisting that he would not perform unless black performers could also perform.

We could criticise his performances while still allowing that he was well liked in the black community.

But if someone criticised the performances of Al Jolson by implying he was a racist who only wanted to mock black people then they are either ignorant or dishonest.

Similarly I cannot take criticism of drag acts as sincere if it is predicated on the assumption that drag is about mocking women with offensive caricatures.

 

[Darat]

Well...of course not. A woman wearing a boyfriend shirt is not trying to pass themselves off as being of the opposite sex. A drag queen is. The level of commitment is what makes the far righters think that drag queens have...you know...fully embraced being a woman, which to the tightly rightys means being a catcher instead of a pitcher if you take my meaning. I get what they are thinking, even though I don't agree.

I would disagree, I'd say that a drag queen is not trying to pass themselves off as a female, they are creating a cartoon of a female, females don't dress like most modern drag queens (I am sure there are some exceptions as with everything).

 

[Robin]

Darat, what do you see as the difference between:
A male actor performing a female role
A male actor impersonating a well-known female personality in as true and genuine a fashion as possible
A drag act

Do you acknowledge any difference in those at all?

Or to put it another way, this seems to be committing the True Drag Queen fallacy.

 

[Darat]

A costume is something you wear. I think a drag queen is something you are.

Only in the sense you are a construction worker, that I'm a project consultant, that someone is a comedian. We all all have our work persona, some require certain "costumes" or uniforms and so on.

 

[Darat]

Benny Hill frocked up to put on a show. RuPaul is living the life. I think the difference is real.

RuPaul is flamboyant in real life but it you do a bit of looking you'll see he only puts on his drag costume for some of his work. At the social events he attends you will see him dressed as 'a man". He is a drag queen the same way a professional comedian is a comedian.

 

[Darat]

Yeeeees....yes, that's right....of course I didn't say he was a woman...nor did anyone else...

ETA: a drag queen dresses like a woman. When StacyHS asked if he was in women's attire, I said that in the same way women don't lounge around the house in full makeup and heels, he wouldn't be expected to either.

So he isn't in drag when being himself or at least as much as being on Instagram and the like is anyone being themself. I'm sure the actors in Hamilton don't doss about their apartment in their characters clothes either.

 

[Darat]

Follow up to the post above - first of all here is the missing '

I don't follow social media but was wondering what does RuPaul look like when not in his drag costume, so I went to Shutterstock - a well known photo licencing company and did a search for "Rupaul" https://www.shutterstock.com/search/rupaul

As you will see most of the images are in fact of Rupaul not in drag, it appears that as said earlier he drags up for performances.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I would actually put a serious fantasy LARPer’s favorite vampire character on equal ideological footing with a typical well developed drag persona. They are both costumed characters being fully played by a performer who has invested a lot of work and love into them, yet not with the intention of literally passing as either a vampire or a woman.

Can you imagine if there was a drag queen roleplaying game with combat? The DRAMA of someone’s drag persona getting killed in combat and having to start a new one? Heads would roll! XD

I think you just invented a bestselling game. Kickstarter it!

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I wonder, that law forbidding drag acts, would that immediately forbid any and all Monty Python episodes and movies?
After all, children might see men dressed and acting as over the top old women there.

 

[Thermal]

You might want to go re-read your own post before you start making accusations of putting words imouths.

Here, your words, not mine:

Why would you think that someone would get the same thing from women in workwear as they would from a drag performance?

Oh will you knock it off? I was challenging your claim that:

Do you have anything to back your assumption that fans of drag acts would not be fans of women's fashion shows?

...which is factually untrue. Now you think you're going to move the goalposts to claim it was all about workboots? Cheap.

Work boots and hard hats are work wear.

Since you are sledgehammering your goalpost move to death, here's a little background for you. Workboots were designed for men for an industry that has been almost exclusively male for multiple generations. Today, somewhere between 6-14% of the construction workforce is made of women (not all of whom would even wear workboots, depending on what they specifically do). Many of the major workboot manufacturers do not even offer women's models, but simply offer a conversion chart to the male models.

So yes, workboots are workwear. Traditionally and overwhelmingly, male workwear, just as a purse is considered an overwhelmingly female accessory, even though some men have adopted them.

Women in work boots and hard hats are what you said. And you were asking why people didn't get the same from that as they get from drag performances.

And the work boots. Which exhausts your analogy.

You may be unaware of this (and I wouldn't fault you if you are), but workboots, specifically Timberland brand, have been a staple of male hip hop culture for decades now. So much so, in fact, that Timberland has gone from being predominantly geared towards construction workers and outdoorsmen to almost exclusively catering to hip-hop fashion (reluctantly at first, but hey, that's where the money was).

Not my fault if you expressed yourself badly.

If you meant women in.men's clothes you should have said so.

I try to mix up the language a bit to keep it from becoming monotonous, trusting that posters won't lock on to some trivial pedantic quibble as a gotcha. Imagine my recurring disappointment. .