Thermal
August Member
Could you maybe proofread that one and give it another shot?
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Drag Shows!!
- Thread starter crescent
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Could you maybe proofread that one and give it another shot?
No drag-supportive female posters speaking up in the thread? It couldn’t possibly be a factor that some of the board’s women don’t really enjoy the repetitive negativity and the stock dismissal of their opinions as essentially meaningless to these conversations.
Every time I’ve shown up in one of these EC/Rolfe threads to reply to ‘females x’ to say ‘I’m female and I y,’ the next post has been ‘so what, do you think your opinion overrules the feelings of (group)?’
I’m female and I both enjoy and support drag performances in general. (I’m sure drag shows that I would not enjoy exist.)
The only performance style I dislike on principle is ‘taking advantage of social pressure comedy’ where the performers shame and peer-pressure audience members into allowing transgressions against their social comfort. If they are not EXTREMELY upfront about the fact that that is what they are going to do BEFORE the audience even enters the venue (as pre-show patter often involves insulting anyone who gets up to leave) I think it’s ****** and exploitative behavior.
Every time I’ve shown up in one of these EC/Rolfe threads to reply to ‘females x’ to say ‘I’m female and I y,’ the next post has been ‘so what, do you think your opinion overrules the feelings of (group)?’
I’m female and I both enjoy and support drag performances in general. (I’m sure drag shows that I would not enjoy exist.)
The only performance style I dislike on principle is ‘taking advantage of social pressure comedy’ where the performers shame and peer-pressure audience members into allowing transgressions against their social comfort. If they are not EXTREMELY upfront about the fact that that is what they are going to do BEFORE the audience even enters the venue (as pre-show patter often involves insulting anyone who gets up to leave) I think it’s ****** and exploitative behavior.
No I'm good. Pretend it's hard to understand all you want.
Thermal
August Member
Ok. Are you saying that the unorthodoxy of it or something (not sure if that's the right word but I trust you'll get it) is the attraction?
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
I gotta agree with Thermal. I think there's at least one missing word, but I don't know for sure what it is so I can't follow the sentence.
Thermal
August Member
Im not kidding. I really don't understand it. What which of the four or so butchered words were changed to would give entirely different meanings.
*Sighs* I don't know how (some obvs) drag performers are supposed to make it more obvious that pointing out the absurdity in societally dictated separate clothing for men and women is often part of the message.
Clear enough?
Like seriously. Strip out all of the social baggage and the people who have a problem with drag are just going "THAT PERSON HAS PIECES OF CLOTH DRAPPED OVER THEIR BODY THE WRONG WAY!" and that's absurd.
That's at least some of the point some of the time. A cold splash of water to the face to remind that no matter how much pomp and circumstance you put on your argument it's still you trying to make "BUT THAT PERSON IS WEARING CLOTHES THE WRONG WAY" into something it's not absurd to care about.
Clear enough?
Like seriously. Strip out all of the social baggage and the people who have a problem with drag are just going "THAT PERSON HAS PIECES OF CLOTH DRAPPED OVER THEIR BODY THE WRONG WAY!" and that's absurd.
That's at least some of the point some of the time. A cold splash of water to the face to remind that no matter how much pomp and circumstance you put on your argument it's still you trying to make "BUT THAT PERSON IS WEARING CLOTHES THE WRONG WAY" into something it's not absurd to care about.
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Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Is that really what you think I'm saying? Is that genuinely all you've managed to take away from my perspective? That my objection is that males are wearing female clothing?If that's what you took away from my posts... I think you need to read harder.
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
Oh, great. Now how're we all supposed to get handed our patriarchy cards or get accused of mansplaining?
Wait, your opinion was preemptively dismissed as not counting specifically because you enjoy drag shows. Self-selection bias, I'm afraid.
Whew, because for a minute there I thought that dreaded "patriarchy card" automatic argument winner would no longer get played, and that would just suck.
eta: <sarcasm>, in case anyone needs their meter fixed
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Thermal
August Member
...so you think (some) drag queens are just a put-on. Well that's at least a different POV.
ETA: and no, pretty sure the cloth thing doesn't mean anything to anyone. The Pythons in drag didn't raise an eyebrow. It is adopting the entire appearance and mannerism of the sex that they aren't that draws attention from both sides
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Darat, what do you see as the difference between:
- A male actor performing a female role
- A male actor impersonating a well-known female personality in as true and genuine a fashion as possible
- A drag act
Do you acknowledge any difference in those at all?
In my country they are all doing drag.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
No, I was doing it because I was genuinely curious, like I said. But thanks for assuming an agenda on my part.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
It depends. When you're talking about matters of taste, and we are, it's not as easy. Here, I'll give you an example:
Why do those things suit your tastes? What is it about those things that make them suit your tastes, and not other things?
This is what Thermal was actually looking for when asking "what do you get out of drag performances". Why those, and not other kinds of performances? Well, because I like them. They suit my tastes and the tastes of those I like to hang out with.
What do I get out of it? I get to experience some things that suit my tastes, Music I enjoy listening to. Dancing I enjoy watching. Jokes I enjoy laughing at. Can I get those things at shows that are not drag shows? Of course, but that's not the point. I go to drag shows because they suit my tastes.
Okay, confession time: I don't actually go to drag shows. I am a shut-in introvert with social anxiety. I'd rather spend an evening playing Mass Effect than go to a show. But if I weren't, these are the reasons I would go to drag shows. So I don't think it really matters. But full disclosure and everything.
Thermal
August Member
Well in fairness it wasn't much of an assumption. You had just done it:
But apologies, my bad. This thread gets me cranky. To answer your question, I'll put it under spoilers so as not to clog the thread with a derail and find myself ritually disemboweled by the mod team:
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
Cool, I appreciate that, thanks. I like that you enjoy it that much. I would probably have a similar top-5 for sword fighting.
But again, my question is why do you like these things, rather than some other things? To keep it close to home, why snowboarding and not skiing?
To make the analogy clear (and bring it back on topic), this to me is like asking why drag shows and not some other kind of cabaret.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Probably for some. But my response was to the highlighted section: "Why are posters so vocal about seeing men dressed as women, and noncommittal about women dressed as men?"
Women dressing in what was once considered strictly 'men's clothing' is so commonplace that no one think twice about it. Women are not accused of "grooming" children because they're wearing jeans and a 'boyfriend's shirt". But men wearing traditional female attire is frightening for some (for reasons already stated) so they have to defend their traditional beliefs by demonizing those that don't "follow the rules".
Thermal
August Member
As I said earlier, the why is tough to answer. What you enjoy is a breeze.
Also, I love skiing too. It might only be that I prefer the minimal amount of accessories that tilts the needle towards boarding.
Which comes back full circle to my initial query: do drag aficionados like all types of glamorous fashion, or is it just men in dresses that do it for them? Oddly, no drag advocates in the thread talked about other types of glamour parading. Other kinds of cabaret, to circle back to your analogy.
Cabaret and boardsports are good analogies, come to think of it. They very naturally spill over to interest in similar styles. But with drag, it's oddly in isolation as described by other posters here. No talk of men's fashion shows on the catwalk or women strutting on the red carpet. No interest at all in other forms of presentation. Just in a guy with heels and lip gloss. It seems to be an odd focus, if similar interests aren't entertained.
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Thermal
August Member
I get your point; women wearing men's clothes is far more commonplace. But drag performers aren't tossing on a t-shirt and yoga pants. It's a full tilt time-consuming commitment to present as a woman. Exponentially more so than my wife throwing on one of my shirts for a beach coverup. I short, drag is not casual. It's a dedicated representation. That action takes real work.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
No. You don't get my point. It's not the ease with which women wear men's clothes and drag queens take more time and effort; it's that conservatives tend to equate drag queens with homosexuals and trans-gender which scares the hell out of them and don't with women wearing "men's" clothing.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
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