Drag Shows!!

[Darat]

Thats the kind I have seen in Atlantic City, usually as part of a variety review performance geared entirely at adults, with pretty graphic adult humor. Posters here seem to be avoiding this and talk about other drag they see. That's what I'm asking about.

I don't think so - folk are talking about drag performances.

One of the most adult material and foul mouthed drag queens in the UK was Paul O'Grady and his Lilly Savage character- he transferred Lilly Savage to mainstream and family TV shows - he adjusted his act to his current audience. There is nothing stopping a drag act performing a family friendly act on a Tuesday and adult only on a Wednesday.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Again I think it improbable.that in my 60 years of life through working class and middle class milieux and having never been much of a fan of drag myself, I have, by massive coincidence only known women women who either have no dislike of drag or actively like it.

I think I've met a pretty broad cross section of people in my life having been a bank clerk, a factory worker, a furniture van driver, a postman, a security guard and my current role in IT.

I come from working class roots on one side and middle class on the other. How did I miss this alleged majority of women who have a problem with drag?

I haven't claimed it's a majority overall, only that it's enough to not be dismissible out of hand as some sort of hysterical loony.

And how come I am hearing this now at the same time as it has become the bandwagon for neo Nazis and freedom hating US republicans?

Probably because the right wing has recently appropriated a feminist objection and are twisting it for their own ends. And given the highly polarized nature of our news reporting, of course you're going to hear about any "horrible evil" things the right wing does.

Which does not at all negate the fact that many feminists as well as other females and males have been complaining about this for about 50 years or so.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're asking "why do you like the things you like?" and that's not a question that tends to be amenable to satisfactory answers.

I disagree. "What's the appeal?" is a fairly valid question. You should be able to articulate some description about what you find appealing and entertaining about drag, especially when you're given the opportunity to compare it to other forms of entertainment so you can help identify what specifically about drag makes it appealing to you.

Sheesh. I like crochet. It's a new hobby for me. I like the soothing nature of the counting involved, and the pattern repitition - that calms my mind and appeals to my innate likeness for all things mathy. I also enjoy the physical aspect of it, the honing of fine motor skills and the need for a degree of ambidexterity - I've never been particularly good with my hands, so having something that teaches my fingers to behave and do what my brain tells them is satisfying. I also really enjoy the creative aspects of it. From basic patterns, I can extrapolate, and once I've learned the "theory" behind a particular pattern or shape, it opens up all sorts of possibilities for me. For example, I recently followed a pattern to make a hat that looks like a monster head with teeth. From that basis, I now know how to make a versatile hood to use as a base, how to make applique patterns for eyes and nose, how to make teeth and attach them to the edge of the hood, and how to make a snake which curls. This then provides me the ability to alter that pattern and to expand into variations on a theme so I can make things to suit my tastes and the tastes of those I make things for.

See? Not so hard to explain why you find something appealing, and what about it causes you enjoyment, is it?

 

[Thermal]

I don't think so - folk are talking about drag performances.

One of the most adult material and foul mouthed drag queens in the UK was Paul O'Grady and his Lilly Savage character- he transferred Lilly Savage to mainstream and family TV shows - he adjusted his act to his current audience. There is nothing stopping a drag act performing a family friendly act on a Tuesday and adult only on a Wednesday.

Right, a lot of pros can switch gears for an audience, that's why they are professionals. RuPaul is another great example.

But the thread topic seems to be oriented towards local stuff that kids might be influenced by. Which is a legit concern, as we saw in some of the earlier backfiring videos. What I'm trying to get a handle on is whether posters are supportive of audience appropriate drag shows (I'm on board, if not entirely understanding the benefit), versus those who are defending drag standalone as something they are into.

 

[Emily's Cat]

THIS is what I'm talking about. NO ONE is going to "win" this argument because it's unwinnable. So just stop trying. Let it go. Move on.

At some point in time, someone said the same thing about black people who complained that minstrel shows were inherently offensive and racist. Someone would have told them it's an unwinnable argument, and there would have been someone insisting that it's not nearly as bad as it's made out to be, because lots and lots of people like it - even black people like it!

And all of that was true at some point in time.

But people didn't just throw the towel in. They kept arguing and making the point. This utlimately resulted in minstrel shows becoming unpopular and dying out, and it eventually resulted in a massive opprobrium for anything that even remotely resembled "blackface".

I think it's swung a bit too far, but on the whole I'd rather have this outcome than to have continued prevalence of white actors performing caricatures of black people for the lulz.

My objective is to change some minds. At a minimum, I want to get people to think about the nature of the performances, and the inherent message involved in males performing caricatures of females. At least enough to step back and ask oneself "Are some drag performances insulting and derogatory toward females? Are some drag performances misogynistic?"

 

[JoeMorgue]

At a minimum, I want to get people to think about the nature of the performances, and the inherent message involved in males performing caricatures of females. At least enough to step back and ask oneself "Are some drag performances insulting and derogatory toward females? Are some drag performances misogynistic?"

You ARE aware that the page and half where you were accusing them of being pedophile sleeper cells didn't disappear and people can still go back and read it right?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Exactly! This is the point I have been making all along. It is an agenda disguised as morality. You are being used to further their own hateful and extreme agenda.

No. Stop right there.

I'm not being used. I've held this view of drag for a long time. It's not something I've done a lot of howling about, because up until quite recently, it wasn't particularly mainstream, and it wasn't nearly as prevalent as it has become.

Don't patronize me by insinuating that I'm a brainless pawn of the right wing, unable to form my own independent views based on my own values and perspective. It's incredibly insulting and borders on mansplaining.

How about, instead of guilt by association, you actually listen to the perspective I have, what I have to say as myself, and stop trying to force-team me with the right wing so you've got an easy means to poison the well.?

Who was the one that first compared black face to drag? Mary Cheney, a Republican political activist, go figure.

False. I provided a link to an academic paper written 15 years prior to Cheney's comment, making that same comparison. The comparison has been made in at least some feminist circles since the 70s.

You're mistaking your own ignorance of the complaint with reality. It's not that drag hadn't been compared to blackface for quite some time... it's that the NEWS had not HAND-FED you that argument for your personal consumption until it was reiterated by *gasp* a republican.

Seriously, this goes back to my prior observation: This is not a new complaint. Females and feminists have been making this comparison and complaining about the inherent misogyny of drag for at least 50 years.

The reason YOU PERSONALLY haven't heard it is not because the arguments haven't been made. It's because YOU PERSONALLY haven't been listening. You didn't care about the topic at all, probably never gave it any thought at all. Probably never even gave drag a thought.

You only started to have an opinion on the topic when your left-leaning news sources started telling you that an evil right winger opposes drag. At which point, you become a supporter of drag - not because of any inherent value you see in it, but simply because supporting drag sticks it to the right wing.

 

[The_Animus]

Depends on the context and the age of the children. Nobody gave the context. What was "it"? If it was something like cancer then it seems a harmless double-entendre of the type pantomime dames famously made, like "It's nice to have something to suck' on, isn't it?".

It was always assumed to go over the heads of children.

You see this all the time in entertainment, especially movies. Many are meant for kids but also have a lot of lines for adults that the kids won't get. I'm not sure why it's an issue with a drag show but not everything else.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're still trying to limit the discussion to the people in this thread that you know are female. Why? You don't know the plumbing of everyone involved, and I'm pointing out that your 2 against, the only 2 against you've been able to muster, is vastly overwhelmed by the multitudes who actually vote with their feet and attend drag shows.

This is an empty argument. You're making an assertion that drag is wildly popular among females. As evidence you point to females who attend drag shows. Nevermind that females who attend drag shows are a minority of the female population overall. That doesn't seem to enter into your cherry-picked equation.

I have argued that support for drag is not a unanimous, or even supermajority view, among females in general. As evidence, I have the six known females who have posted in these threads... none of whom have voiced support, two of whom have voices strong dislike.

Neither approach is perfect, neither is definitive. But my approach has more concrete support than yours does.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You'd think people were running down the streets trying to avoid drag shows, stepping around one only to run smack into another from this thread.

Half this board probably couldn't find a drag show in the next 24 hours if they actively tried to seek one out.

True... but this touches on part of the reason that there's been an increase in discussion about drag.

For at least 50 years, there has been complaints about the nature of drag from females, specifically from feminists. For the most part, it falls on deaf ears because drag has historically been an "underground" entertainment. Some few here and there that show up in TV or movies in predominantly comedic roles, but on the whole it has been something you have to actually go intentionally look for in order to find.

Rue Paul brought drag forward into the limelight. And if people had been bothered to pay attention, you would have noted an increase in the argument about whether or not drag should be considered socially acceptable, and whether or not drag was inherently misogynistic in nature at that time. But... most people didn't give it any thought, most people couldn't be bothered to go find the arguments. Most people simply do not listen to females at all.

But over the last few years, drag has moved from being underground, and even from being a TV show... to being something presented in schools and in public libraries targeted at children.

That changes the nature of the discussion quite a bit. Now it's not only those horrid feminazis complaining about it, which most people - especially males - can just ignore. Now it's parents. And unlike the narrative presented by left-leaning news, it's not only right wing parents that are complaining and find it inappropriate. At the moment, there are complaints coming from left-leaning feminists and homosexuals, from centrist and moderate parents... and from the religious right.

But the only arguments most of the people on ISF see are those that are curated to evoke a political response to a highly partisan audience. You see and hear that this is being driven by "the right wing" and therefore, it must be evil and bad.

But the reality is that this is a topic of interest to people across all ranges of the political spectrum. That is has been packaged especially for your outrage has only brought it to the forefront.

 

[wareyin]

This is an empty argument. You're making an assertion that drag is wildly popular among females. As evidence you point to females who attend drag shows. Nevermind that females who attend drag shows are a minority of the female population overall. That doesn't seem to enter into your cherry-picked equation.

I have argued that support for drag is not a unanimous, or even supermajority view, among females in general. As evidence, I have the six known females who have posted in these threads... none of whom have voiced support, two of whom have voices strong dislike.

Neither approach is perfect, neither is definitive. But my approach has more concrete support than yours does.

Does the cognitive dissonance of your arguments ever bother you?

Drag shows are mainly attended by women, and they are (according to you) mainstream. Mainstream + mainly women = a lot of women. But all of those women don't count, according to you.

In contrast, you brag that of the six women known to you that are/have participated in this thread, 2 agree with you. 1/3 of a tiny sample is, in your opinion, somehow relevant and massively more important that the much, much larger number of women who choose to attend the shows you're trying to tell them they should hate.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You ARE aware that the page and half where you were accusing them of being pedophile sleeper cells didn't disappear and people can still go back and read it right?

Noting that there have been safeguarding failures involved in child-targeted entertainment is not the same as implying that all drag actors are pedos.

The fact that some of the performers had criminal records for sexual offenses against children is one of several objections - that one is specific to the drag events that I find to be generally inappropriate for children, although it is not the only reason I find drag to be inappropriate for children.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that one of several reasons is the only reason. And don't blow it out of proportion and strawman it into something it is not.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You see this all the time in entertainment, especially movies. Many are meant for kids but also have a lot of lines for adults that the kids won't get. I'm not sure why it's an issue with a drag show but not everything else.

It becomes an issue with drag shows when those drag shows are being targeted at children... and when the content is insufficiently adjusted to a very young audience.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Does the cognitive dissonance of your arguments ever bother you?

Drag shows are mainly attended by women, and they are (according to you) mainstream. Mainstream + mainly women = a lot of women. But all of those women don't count, according to you.

In contrast, you brag that of the six women known to you that are/have participated in this thread, 2 agree with you. 1/3 of a tiny sample is, in your opinion, somehow relevant and massively more important that the much, much larger number of women who choose to attend the shows you're trying to tell them they should hate.

I know far more than the six posters in this thread. I personally know very well several dozen females who oppose drag. I also know several hundred who I have interacted with in some fashion that disapprove of drag. I have seen comments and responses in the several thousands expressing disapproval of drag.

I mention the six in these threads because it is verifiable by the participants in these threads - it's a concrete observation.

I will also once again point out that you've got 1/3 who are STRONGLY OPPOSED... but you have 0/3 which are SUPPORTIVE.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

But over the last few years, drag has moved from being underground, and even from being a TV show... to being something presented in schools and in public libraries targeted at children.

That changes the nature of the discussion quite a bit. Now it's not only those horrid feminazis complaining about it, which most people - especially males - can just ignore. Now it's parents. And unlike the narrative presented by left-leaning news, it's not only right wing parents that are complaining and find it inappropriate. At the moment, there are complaints coming from left-leaning feminists and homosexuals, from centrist and moderate parents... and from the religious right.

But the only arguments most of the people on ISF see are those that are curated to evoke a political response to a highly partisan audience. You see and hear that this is being driven by "the right wing" and therefore, it must be evil and bad.

But the reality is that this is a topic of interest to people across all ranges of the political spectrum. That is has been packaged especially for your outrage has only brought it to the forefront.

Not in my country, it has been targeted at children and families for all my life, my grandparents were "exposed" to drag when they were kids - so in the 1900s. "Female impersonators" have been mainstream for decades and decades.

 

[wareyin]

I know far more than the six posters in this thread. I personally know very well several dozen females who oppose drag. I also know several hundred who I have interacted with in some fashion that disapprove of drag. I have seen comments and responses in the several thousands expressing disapproval of drag.

Yes, that's that self-selection bias I keep trying to get you to recognize. You and the small circle of acquaintances you have specifically because you agree on things all agree on this thing. That gives you the impression that everyone agrees with you, because everyone you hang out with agrees with you. And specifically excluding/ignoring the larger number of people that disagree with you certainly helps reinforce that error.

If you and 10 of your friends all make hundreds of anti-drag posts, then you really have seen several thousands of comments expressing disapproval of drag. Hell, as adept as Russia has been at making bots to post inflammatory content, you've probably seen comments from accounts you don't already know.

I mention the six in these threads because it is verifiable by the participants in these threads - it's a concrete observation.

I will also once again point out that you've got 1/3 who are STRONGLY OPPOSED... but you have 0/3 which are SUPPORTIVE.

It's also a concrete observation that we have a lot more than 2 women who like drag so much that they choose to attend. But you wish to dismiss this larger number because...well, you're not claiming to speak for all women but the only women who count are those who agree with you.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not in my country, it has been targeted at children and families for all my life, my grandparents were "exposed" to drag when they were kids - so in the 1900s. "Female impersonators" have been mainstream for decades and decades.

Darat, what do you see as the difference between:

• A male actor performing a female role
• A male actor impersonating a well-known female personality in as true and genuine a fashion as possible
• A drag act

Do you acknowledge any difference in those at all?

 

[Stacyhs]

It'd be stellar of you'd stop putting words in my mouth. I have pointedly made no such assumption.



We are not talking about work clothes. Skip the hard hat if it's throwing you off.

The discussion here is laser focused on men in women's clothes. Why are posters so vocal about seeing men dressed as women, and noncommittal about women dressed as men?

Because men wearing women's clothes (dresses/skirts/high heels) is not considered the norm in our society. It's considered unacceptable for various reasons including linking it to homosexuality, trans-genderism, etc. whether that is accurate or not. For many, that is unacceptable, especially to the conservative minded. On the other hand, it's been culturally accepted and normalized for women to wear men's clothes. Women can wear pants, jeans, t-shirts, shirts...even those actually made for men...and no one thinks twice. The "boyfriend shirt" has become a normal part of a women's wardrobe.

 

[Stacyhs]

At some point in time, someone said the same thing about black people who complained that minstrel shows were inherently offensive and racist. Someone would have told them it's an unwinnable argument, and there would have been someone insisting that it's not nearly as bad as it's made out to be, because lots and lots of people like it - even black people like it!

And all of that was true at some point in time.

But people didn't just throw the towel in. They kept arguing and making the point. This utlimately resulted in minstrel shows becoming unpopular and dying out, and it eventually resulted in a massive opprobrium for anything that even remotely resembled "blackface".

I think it's swung a bit too far, but on the whole I'd rather have this outcome than to have continued prevalence of white actors performing caricatures of black people for the lulz.

My objective is to change some minds. At a minimum, I want to get people to think about the nature of the performances, and the inherent message involved in males performing caricatures of females. At least enough to step back and ask oneself "Are some drag performances insulting and derogatory toward females? Are some drag performances misogynistic?"

That's a long way of saying you want to win the argument. You aren't.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't know it's supposed to be made more obvious that pointing out the absurdity in the whole idea that men and women have declarative clothing is the the point at least some of the time has to get.