Drag Shows!!

[tyr_13]

I keep rolling back to "why does the audience like drag?" Like, I get the performers doing what they like. Expression and all. And of course their friends and others who share a similar lifestyle. But do the people who like seeing men in dresses also get fired up to see women dressed as lumberjacks? I mean yeah, drag kings are out there, but much like pole dancers, there is a solid majority only going in one direction. There's not much happening in the Drag King Story Hour front, by contrast.

Drag viewers of the forum: what are you getting from seeing men in dresses that you are not getting from women in workboots and hardhats? If it's about glamor, do you spend a similar amount of time at female fashion shows? Or is it again just something about specifically guys in women's clothes that compelled you to buy that ticket?

I'm not a fan of drag. While I can certainly appreciate and even geek out over the techniques used to create the outfits, and the creativity used to design them, it just doesn't hold my interest.

However, I think I can speak to the highlighted coming in sideways from other hobbies. First and foremost, yeah, by my observation a LOT of fans, and especially the most ardent fans, of drag absolutely adore fashion. Digging in a little though, there is no rational reason to reduce the attraction to drag to only fashion and pretend that they must spend a similar amount of time at fashion shows. The performance elements of the two events have vast differences for the audience. Having had several close friends who modeled, I'm confident in saying that while it is an arduous performance the goal is to present the outfit in the way the designer and producers desire. Drag is from what I've seen, generally more akin to acting, creating and embodying a character. The over the top outfits are the nucleus of that, sure, but it isn't all there is to it. Men's fashion is much more limited. There is just so little that is both 'definitely for men' and 'definitely for fashion' that you had to resort to safety gear in male dominated professions to even have examples.

Relating another way, cosplay events often have separate contests for costume and character. I've judged both and they have different criteria. Even inside those, costume contests often have individual categories inside them to score on. Judging a character contest I'd never ask to see the seam and inspect if the French seam was pressed correctly at each overfold, but that would be pertinent to the sewing award. I'd never ask the construction contest people to answer a question in character.

And coming in from my cosplay background, drag's lack of attention to men's outfits and characters likely stems from the sources of drag being western beauty pageants which are all obviously skewed towards women's beauty. Women's fashion is given primacy in the west as well. Whereas, it's extraordinarily common for women, yes mostly cis women, to cosplay male characters. Not a 'gender bent' female version of a male character, but 'crossplay', playing the male version of a male character while being personally a woman in everyday life. I've seen cishet couples cosplaying the same character. Because cosplay doesn't have the same cultural starting point, the same inertia, there is less of dichotomy.

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Some women are offended by drag. Some aren't. No one here can say which is the greater in number so just stop trying to one up each other over something that you can't prove.

Which has the greater number is not particularly relevant - neither is an immaterial perspective.

But that is exactly what some, including you, have been going round and round about. While I think it is relevant, my point is that neither side can prove what the majority view is on drag by women so this back and forth is a waste of time.

Those of us holding one view ought to be able to discuss the reason for our view, and make the argument for why our perspective should be given greater consideration... without being dismissed out of hand belittled.

That has nothing to do with my post.

 

[Stacyhs]

I couldn't care less about drag. I don't find it entertaining at all. But the fact that Republicans are using it as yet another excuse to legislate against in their fearmongering war on "wokeness" is the point that bothers me.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, that's not at all what I'm extrapolating. I'm saying on the one hand we have the number of women choosing to attend drag shows which we know is a far, far greater number than 2. On the other hand, we have 2, and only 2, women here who claim women are offended by drag. You claim to represent some silent, larger body of women who you're sure agree with you, but you have zero evidence for that.

Once again, I will point out that if you look across the various splits, you have a total of six females who have taken part in this discussion. Two of us are vocally opposed to drag, two others have expressed at least mild dislike of drag, and you have ONE female who has expressed support for drag.

So even here, on this site, which is FAR from being well-balanced in terms of representation on the basis of sex, you have more females against drag than for drag.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I couldn't care less about drag. I don't find it entertaining at all. But the fact that Republicans are using it as yet another excuse to legislate against in their fearmongering war on "wokeness" is the point that bothers me.

Wareyin, I must revise my prior estimate. Of the six females who have posted, two are vocally against, two have expressed some dislike but are not strongly engaged, and the remaining two have no feelings about it at all.

Indeed the single female poster that you are relying on as support for drag being awesome, doesn't even find it entertaining.

 

[Robin]

Again I think it improbable.that in my 60 years of life through working class and middle class milieux and having never been much of a fan of drag myself, I have, by massive coincidence only known women women who either have no dislike of drag or actively like it.

I think I've met a pretty broad cross section of people in my life having been a bank clerk, a factory worker, a furniture van driver, a postman, a security guard and my current role in IT.

I come from working class roots on one side and middle class on the other. How did I miss this alleged majority of women who have a problem with drag?

How come I only heard reports of rad fems I'm the early 80s?

And how come I am hearing this now at the same time as it has become the bandwagon for neo Nazis and freedom hating US republicans?

 

[arthwollipot]

Drag viewers of the forum: what are you getting from seeing men in dresses that you are not getting from women in workboots and hardhats? If it's about glamor, do you spend a similar amount of time at female fashion shows? Or is it again just something about specifically guys in women's clothes that compelled you to buy that ticket?

You're asking "why do you like the things you like?" and that's not a question that tends to be amenable to satisfactory answers.

 

[Robin]

And there is still this nonsensical conflating of drag performances with things like pole dancing.

The difference is of course that "adult entertainment" in the sense of pole dancers and strippers is that the intention is to stimulate sexual desire.

As Axel Foley said - "it's supposed to make your dick hard".

I'm missing something big if drag queens are supposed to make your dick hard.

Drag shows are "adult entertainment" in the sense that stand up comedy is adult entertainment.

 

[Robin]

Drag viewers of the forum: what are you getting from seeing men in dresses that you are not getting from women in workboots and hardhats? If it's about glamor, do you spend a similar amount of time at female fashion shows? Or is it again just something about specifically guys in women's clothes that compelled you to buy that ticket?

The Venn Diagram of.men who are die hard fans of drag and men who love female fashion shows is not quite a circle but it is close.

You might have mentioned female movie stars from the 30s and 40s.

That relation doesn't seem to hold so much for women fans of drag. Not in my experience at least.

(Afterthought - I wonder about the Venn Diagram of people who hate drag and those who think of women in work boots and hard hats being equivalent to cross dressers)

 

[Thermal]

The Venn Diagram of.men who are die hard fans of drag and men who love female fashion shows is not quite a circle but it is close.

Bold assertion Do you have something to support that? Anyway, I was asking posters here, not the world at large.

You might have mentioned female movie stars from the 30s and 40s.

That relation doesn't seem to hold so much for women fans of drag. Not in my experience at least.

(Afterthought - I wonder about the Venn Diagram of people who hate drag and those who think of women in work boots and hard hats being equivalent to cross dressers)

I'm afraid I didn't understand any of the above

 

[Thermal]

You're asking "why do you like the things you like?" and that's not a question that tends to be amenable to satisfactory answers.

In fact, I pointedly did not ask "why".

If you ask me why I love my wife, surfing or whatever, I couldn't tell you. If you asked me what they did for me, I could go on for hours.

So here's a "why" question: why did you change the question?

 

[arthwollipot]

In fact, I pointedly did not ask "why".

If you ask me why I love my wife, surfing or whatever, I couldn't tell you. If you asked me what they did for me, I could go on for hours.

So here's a "why" question: why did you change the question?

I didn't change the question. Your question was synonymous. "What do you get out of x" is functionally equivalent to "why do you enjoy x".

 

[Thermal]

And there is still this nonsensical conflating of drag performances with things like pole dancing.

The difference is of course that "adult entertainment" in the sense of pole dancers and strippers is that the intention is to stimulate sexual desire.

As Axel Foley said - "it's supposed to make your dick hard".

I'm missing something big if drag queens are supposed to make your dick hard

I think you misunderstand. Pole dancing was being compared as a form of entertainment where the performers are highly sex specific, and there aren't too many performing arts that one-sided. That's all. Any other conflating is only in your imaginings.

Drag shows are "adult entertainment" in the sense that stand up comedy is adult entertainment.

It can be, sure. But how are you painting both with so broad and oversimplified a brush? Some comedy is fine for children. Some drag is absolutely not. Recall the kids at the "It's Not Going to Lick Itself" drag performance club.

 

[Thermal]

I didn't change the question. Your question was synonymous. "What do you get out of x" is functionally equivalent to "why do you enjoy x".

Disagreed. "why do you like X" is hard to answer. "What do you get out of X" is easy peasy. The former is intangible and the latter practical.

 

[arthwollipot]

Disagreed. "why do you like X" is hard to answer. "What do you get out of X" is easy peasy. The former is intangible and the latter practical.

Okay, let's grant that premise for now. What do I get out of drag shows? A night out, probably with friends. Does that help?

 

[Stacyhs]

Once again, I will point out that if you look across the various splits, you have a total of six females who have taken part in this discussion. Two of us are vocally opposed to drag, two others have expressed at least mild dislike of drag, and you have ONE female who has expressed support for drag.

So even here, on this site, which is FAR from being well-balanced in terms of representation on the basis of sex, you have more females against drag than for drag.

Wareyin, I must revise my prior estimate. Of the six females who have posted, two are vocally against, two have expressed some dislike but are not strongly engaged, and the remaining two have no feelings about it at all.

Indeed the single female poster that you are relying on as support for drag being awesome, doesn't even find it entertaining.

Again I think it improbable.that in my 60 years of life through working class and middle class milieux and having never been much of a fan of drag myself, I have, by massive coincidence only known women women who either have no dislike of drag or actively like it.

I think I've met a pretty broad cross section of people in my life having been a bank clerk, a factory worker, a furniture van driver, a postman, a security guard and my current role in IT.

I come from working class roots on one side and middle class on the other. How did I miss this alleged majority of women who have a problem with drag?

How come I only heard reports of rad fems I'm the early 80s?

And how come I am hearing this now at the same time as it has become the bandwagon for neo Nazis and freedom hating US republicans?

THIS is what I'm talking about. NO ONE is going to "win" this argument because it's unwinnable. So just stop trying. Let it go. Move on.

 

[Thermal]

Okay, let's grant that premise for now. What do I get out of drag shows? A night out, probably with friends. Does that help?

Not really. We're talking about drag specific, not the most general of non-specific answers. Unless your night out with friends usually features something you have no interest in?

 

[arthwollipot]

Not really. We're talking about drag specific, not the most general of non-specific answers. Unless your night out with friends usually features something you have no interest in?

Depends. Sometimes just getting out of the house is the goal.

Are you asking me why I would choose a drag show over something else? Because I enjoy it. Why do I enjoy it?

See what I mean?

 

[Thermal]

Depends. Sometimes just getting out of the house is the goal.

Are you asking me why I would choose a drag show over something else? Because I enjoy it. Why do I enjoy it?

See what I mean?

Ask me what I get out of snowboarding and watch how specific, detailed, and in depth my answers get, without a trace of evasiveness.

 

[arthwollipot]

Ask me what I get out of snowboarding and watch how specific, detailed, and in depth my answers get, without a trace of evasiveness.

I won't ask you that, but I will ask you how your specific, detailed, and in depth answer to that question is different from your answer to the question "why do you enjoy snowboarding?"