Drag Shows!!

[Robin]

This suggests you haven't been listening to females since sometime in the early eighties.

So you think I haven't spoken to women in nearly 40 years? You don't think things through much do you?

 

[Robin]

As I may have mentioned I was introduced to drag as a child by four women, my very conservative working class Glasgow great aunts.

I was introduced to the Rocky Horror Show by my little sister (although the Frank'n'Furter role is not strictly drag). Much later work outings to the Rocky Horror Show were organised by the women in the office.

It was by my Mum's request that I took her to see the Cage aux Folles Musical in the last few months of her life.

Any live drag performances I have been to have had many women in the audience and they appeared to be having a good time and not at all offended.

I was dragged to Priscilla Queen of the Desert by my wife and her friends.

It is also safe to say I have had many more women friends than men friends and I can't recall them saying they felt mocked or insulted by drag performances. I can recall many conversations where they said they were insulted by the representations of women in many teen movies so it's not as though we didn't have these conversations.

I think if I were to suggest that children shouldn't be allowed to see any John Hughes film I would be mocked by right wingers, but John Hughes teen films contain some vile mocking and put downs of women.

As I said before, even if some women are offended by drag it is obviously not intended to mock or put down women.

 

[Robin]

OK, case study. Here is Jim Bailey doing Judy Garland on the Ed Sullivan Show. So tell me, do you think his intention here is to mock, belittle or insult Garland?

Do you think Garland or any of the women he impersonated would be offended by these performances?

https://youtu.be/46YARbNvr9s

 

[lionking]

As I may have mentioned I was introduced to drag as a child by four women, my very conservative working class Glasgow great aunts.

I was introduced to the Rocky Horror Show by my little sister (although the Frank'n'Furter role is not strictly drag). Much later work outings to the Rocky Horror Show were organised by the women in the office.

Any live drag performances I have been to have had many women in the audience and they appeared to be having a good time and not at all offended.

I was dragged to Priscilla Queen of the Desert by my wife and her friends.

It is also safe to say I have had many more women friends than men friends and I can't recall them saying they felt mocked or insulted by drag performances. I can recall many conversations where they said they were insulted by the representations of women in many teen movies so it's not as though we didn't have these conversations.

I think if I were to suggest that children shouldn't be allowed to see any John Hughes film I would be mocked by right wingers, but John Hughes teen films contain some vile mocking and put downs of women.

As I said before, even if some women are offended by drag it is obviously not intended to mock or put down women.

Thank you for your single person evidence based post. Interesting, but of no relevance to this thread.

 

[Darat]

I'm not surprised some women are not enamoured with drag, as I said before I've experienced that feedback in the past.

However, the current popularity of drag is not down to gay and straight men, the growth has been in the straight female audience and as mentioned before this builds on what has been a target audience for drag acts for decades - the likes of hen nights, girls' nights out and so on.

I think those women against drag because they consider it mocking etc. of women in general are in a minority, which doesn't mean they are wrong, nor of course does it mean they are right as either opinion is going to be very subjective.

 

[Darat]

Thank you for your single person evidence based post. Interesting, but of no relevance to this thread.

Presumably your comment also applies to posts such as:

This suggests you haven't been listening to females since sometime in the early eighties.

I'm far from alone in my view.

?

 

[lionking]

Presumably your comment also applies to posts such as:



?

How about asking Emily’s Cat. I have nothing further to add.

 

[Darat]

How about asking Emily’s Cat. I have nothing further to add.

I should ask another member about your post? Why?

 

[lionking]

I'm not surprised some women are not enamoured with drag, as I said before I've experienced that feedback in the past.

However, the current popularity of drag is not down to gay and straight men, the growth has been in the straight female audience and as mentioned before this builds on what has been a target audience for drag acts for decades - the likes of hen nights, girls' nights out and so on.

I think those women against drag because they consider it mocking etc. of women in general are in a minority, which doesn't mean they are wrong, nor of course does it mean they are right as either opinion is going to be very subjective.

Given the strident criticism of people opposing your position, how about you providing evidence that only a minority of women do not like drag? You are making this claim after all.

But you won’t. Telling.

 

[Robin]

Thank you for your single person evidence based post. Interesting, but of no relevance to this thread.

Emily's Cat made an allegation about my 'single person experience' and I corrected her about it.

What isn't relevant to the discussion is these little kneejerk sneers of yours where you don't seem to have bothered even reading the thing you are trying to sneer at (or if you have been following then you are deliberately misrepresenting).

You haven't made even one substantive contribution to the discussion, I have made many, whether or not people agree with what I have said.

 

[Robin]

How about asking Emily’s Cat. I have nothing further to add.

You haven't added anything in the first place so "further" is redundant.

 

[Upchurch]

Given the strident criticism of people opposing your position, how about you providing evidence that only a minority of women do not like drag? You are making this claim after all.

But you won’t. Telling.

I mean, I’ve been asking for evidence that most women are offended by drag, as is being claimed, and that hasn’t been provided either.

Is that just as telling?

 

[Darat]

Given the strident criticism of people opposing your position, how about you providing evidence that only a minority of women do not like drag? You are making this claim after all.

But you won’t. Telling.

Those opposed to "your position" - you should check what my position is before making such a silly post.

By the way I've given the information I used to come to my conclusion, for example the popularity of Foo Foo's Palace with the likes of hen nights going back to the 80s, I then mentioned the recent popularity of drag, that hasn't come from gay or straight men tuning in. Now of course it could be that it is a minority of women who like drag (would think it would be) but that does not mean that the majority of women consider drag to be mocking/sexist/contemptuous of women.

If you really want to get into the detail and have a genuine discussion I would say this paper is a good starting point:

https://researchonline.gcu.ac.uk/files/52816710/Baxter_D._et_al_2022_Dragging_up_the_night.pdf

".... Interestingly, 60% of the event attendees at these events are women, with 50% classifying as straight, highlighting that the audience is now broader and more diverse."....

...snip....

"The respondent’s perspective on the changing dynamics of the audience at drag events was captured. Figure 1 demonstrates that there are more heterosexual crowds attending drag events, misaligning with the previous notion that these events are solely attended by LGBTQ+ groups. Following this, there is a gravitation towards a more female audience and that the audience demographic is getting younger. This has only recently been identified within the academic theory (Baxter et al., 2021) and is a clear example of the audience diversification at these events."​

 

[Emily's Cat]

So you think I haven't spoken to women in nearly 40 years? You don't think things through much do you?

It was tongue in cheek.

You made the claim that I am the only female you have heard express a dislike of drag as sexist since the early 80s.

Given that I have heard the same view from several other females (as well as several males), both here on this site as well as in other social media and in real life discussion... Then I must conclude that you're not listening.

My view on this is not new, nor is it unique. That it's not unanimous is irrelevant - it's a view that is held by quite a large number of females, as well as a lot of males. And it's not a brand-new view for any of them either.

So your claim does not represent any sort of counter argument. It's not evidence of anything except your own lack of awareness and lack of attention.

 

[Upchurch]

It was tongue in cheek.

You made the claim that I am the only female you have heard express a dislike of drag as sexist since the early 80s.

Given that I have heard the same view from several other females (as well as several males), both here on this site as well as in other social media and in real life discussion... Then I must conclude that you're not listening.

But it is also true that many women love drag shows. My wife does. She once ran into one a drag queen she had seen on stage at a gas station and points it out whenever we pass that gas station. She once dragged me (no pun intended) to a restaurant that had a drag show along with several of her friends.

I am listening. They just aren't saying what you are.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Thank you for your single person evidence based post. Interesting, but of no relevance to this thread.

So, exactly like the posts of everyone else using personal offense as an argument. Good, I'm glad we agree.

 

[plague311]

But it is also true that many women love drag shows. My wife does. She once ran into one a drag queen she had seen on stage at a gas station and points it out whenever we pass that gas station. She once dragged me (no pun intended) to a restaurant that had a drag show along with several of her friends.

I am listening. They just aren't saying what you are.

Stacyhs doesn't appear to be saying what Emily's Cat is either.

Which shouldn't be all that shocking. Women, like every other demographic, isn't monolithic. You (not you, Upchurch, just in general) shouldn't be surprised by the fact that many women hold different opinions of drag. This thread has been circular for about 3-4 pages now, at least.

I was sitting here trying to think of real valuable points that have been made in this thread that someone could walk away with and I honestly can't think of any. The only thing we've learned is some people don't like drag, other people do.

 

[Upchurch]

Stacyhs doesn't appear to be saying what Emily's Cat is either.

Which shouldn't be all that shocking. Women, like every other demographic, isn't monolithic. You (not you, Upchurch, just in general) shouldn't be surprised by the fact that many women hold different opinions of drag. This thread has been circular for about 3-4 pages now, at least.

I was sitting here trying to think of real valuable points that have been made in this thread that someone could walk away with and I honestly can't think of any. The only thing we've learned is some people don't like drag, other people do.

I would say this is all a fair assessment of some of the topic.

Another part of the topic is whether it is inappropriate for drag queens to read stories to children in a library setting with the stated goal of increasing familiarity with LGBTQ+ people in order to reduce bullying and self-harm.

 

[lionking]

Another part of the topic is whether it is inappropriate for drag queens to read stories to children in a library setting with the stated goal of increasing familiarity with LGBTQ+ people in order to reduce bullying and self-harm.

Indeed. And, while I would have no problem with people in drag reading stories, it is the mission that I have problems with. I do not think that anyone, let alone hetro males, should be instructing young child about LGBTQ issues. They are far too young, and if it were my tax dollars in play, I would object.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Most children's books don't go into the details you fear, and simply seeing a man in a dress isn't going to 'instruct about LGBTQ issues', it will only show the child that such exists. So that those children who feel similar know that they're not alone. That they're not freaks that shouldn't be alive. Better chance of them living to grow up that way.