Drag Shows!!

[TomB]

You're really mixing things up here. Let me try to simplify this for you.

Not all dancing is sexual in nature. Some dancing is explicitly sexual in nature. Stripping is a type of dance that is explicitly sexual in nature.

Stripping is not a dance style. Stripping is removing your clothes. Strip dancing is removing your clothes while dancing. The dance itself may be any style from ballet to hip hop. (Or, more commonly, there may be little or no dancing involved at all.)

Showcasing dancers as role models for children is not in and of itself a problem. Showcasing strippers explicitly as role models for children is a problem, because it intentionally draws a connection between the role model and the profession of stripping - thus it draws a connection between "role model" and "sexual activity" in the context of children.

Strippers are already role models to a lot of young girls. They have kids and families just like you do. They aren't bad people. At least not any worse than accountants, bankers or scientists.

I think it's fine for Stormy Daniels to read at a story hour as a parent guest host. As far as I know, she's a decent person. But yes, as an adult performer her career would not be a topic for children.

Are you following this?

Not that nearly any other genre of dance does NOT do this. The vast majority of dance is not explicitly sexual, much of it isn't even vaguely sexual. Showcasing a ballroom dancer as a role model for children places the emphasis on ballroom dancing, which is not inherently sexual. Showcasing a street crew as role models for children places the emphasis on street dancing, which is not inherently sexual. Showcasing a stripper as a role model for children places emphasis on the stripping - which is inherently sexual.

A lot of dances in the ballroom genre are explicitly sexual. The tango for example:

When the tango began to spread internationally around 1900, cultural norms were generally conservative, and so tango dancing was widely regarded as extremely sexual and inappropriate for public display.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tango

Pole dancing, while most often associated with stripping these days, has a history that goes back hundreds of years. But more relevantly, it has emerged as genres of both artistic dance and exercise recently. I've seen pole dance performances on shows like "America's Got Talent" and it is also a competitive sport with an international governing body that is petitioning to get included in the Olympics.

A lot of conventional dance came from exotic dance.

<snipped out stuff regarding drag>

With the stripper example, there need be no actual stripping involved in story time. The problem is in the implicit connection between the profession and the role model concept. It is the implicit connection made by holding up as an ideal for children the profession of stripping for male titillation and objectification. It instills the idea that being an object for male sexual excitement is something that a) female children should aspire to be and b) that male children should expect female children to pursue.

Are you talking about:

• A stripper doing story time advertising her career as a stripper?
• A parent volunteering to read at story time who happens to work as a stripper?
• A pole dancer? (Note: Pole dancer is not a synonym of stripper.)

I don't think anyone is advocating that stripping be held up as a model career. But some things that come from exotic dance (tango, pole dancing) a legitimate forms of dance and exercise these days.

Would you have a problem with a soldier reading at story hour? I mean their job description literally includes killing people if necessary. (For the record, I have no problem with soldiers. Two of my kids went into the military.)

Now back to drag...
[/quote]

Similarly, even if the Flow Job isn't performing their normally raunchy and adult-themed act in front of children... by holding up Flow Job as a role model for children, it instills the idea that females should be made fun of and reduced to exaggerated stereotypes of their sexual features as enacted by a males, and that the performance of titillating and raunchy portrayals of females as humorous mockery is something male children should aspire to in life.[/QUOTE]

First...Flow Job. I'll agree that the performer should not use that name in front of an audience of children. You've mentioned that performer several times. Do the other DQST use suggestive names for DQST? Is his/her behavior representative, or is it just the outrageous example being presented as the norm? (drag performers aren't trans, but their characters are meant to be female so I don't know which pronouns to use...)

Somewhere you mentioned kids being invited to roll on top of the performer. That sounds odd and unacceptable whether the reader is a drag queen, a doctor, or a carpenter. Are you sure this is not a case of using an outlier individual to characterize the group?

I understand you consider drag to be a harmful caricature of women. Whether I agree or not, that is your strongest argument against DQST.

Your second best argument is that most of the drag acts perform in an environment akin to burlesque, which is adult themed. (Though I should note that a lot of acts like Abbott and Costello started their acts in Burlesque theaters. Presumably, they modified their act for the audience.)

It's not really necessary to paint drag performers as a group as pedophiles, perverts, or otherwise bad people.

 

[Emily's Cat]

white people putting on "black face" and cavorting around on stage portraying black people as monkey-like morons, then they'll think they know what black people are like even if they've hardly ever interacted with any of them. It can get so bad after a century of this ****, that virtually all of the negative stereotypes white people hold about black people are actually fabrications created by white performers.

Do you think that males costumed in exaggerated parodies of females, with focuses on the most egregious elements of female sexual characteristics, increase or decreases bigotry toward females?

 

[Darat]

While I don't see anything harmful (I'm on the fence on the caricature of women argument), I do have questions why there needs to be any story hour hosted by members of a specific group.

Why not just have "Story Hour" with guest storytellers? It would be hosted by library staff and/or (vetted) volunteers from the community who may or may not be in some sort of costume. (And on occasion, you could hire a professional performer or clebrity.) Seems like you could get exposure to a much more diverse group of cultures, identities, etc. this way with a single program.

(I think this may be pretty close to what Thermal has been asking.)

And the evidence is that this is what many libraries do. Often the reading hours are ran by the library staff.

We are talking about just drag story hour in libraries in this thread because the theme of this thread is drag, it appears that for some reason readings by folk doing a drag act need additional scrutiny than a Harry Potter themed act and so on.

 

[TomB]

In this thread...
Female disapproves of males costumed as exaggerated stereotypes of females.
Male in this thread describes that female as "hysterical".

Verging on 2023, y'all. So progress, much evolution.

But you, in turn, are implying that any male who disagrees with you does so due to sexism/misogyny. In effect, males aren't allowed to have opinions about drag.

While not everyone can share a perspective, no one has an exclusive right to opinions.

And I know see the reference to the word "hysterical." It's no longer used in reference to sex.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Let's actually get real and talk about the fact that someone who takes their kids to a book reading like that isn't exactly on the fence regarding LGBTQ issues.

Drag is not an LGBT issue. Drag is not Transgender. FFS, even with the various objections I have to self-id for gender recognition, I would have very little problem with Trans Story Hour.

So unless you are laboring under the impression that Drag performers are all Trans, or that Gay is synonymous with Drag and Drag is a huge necessary component of the orientation of gay and lesbian people... your appeal to LGBT issues is misplaced.

So what are you really afraid of? Are you afraid kids won't be indoctrinated from toddlerhood to be little homophobes?

WTAF? I'm angered that children are being indoctrinated into viewing females as a group worthy of parody and mockery, and that it's acceptable and laudable for males to engage in such insulting stereotypes of females for "entertainment".

 

[Emily's Cat]

While I don't see anything harmful (I'm on the fence on the caricature of women argument), I do have questions why there needs to be any story hour hosted by members of a specific group.

Why not just have "Story Hour" with guest storytellers? It would be hosted by library staff and/or (vetted) volunteers from the community who may or may not be in some sort of costume. (And on occasion, you could hire a professional performer or clebrity.) Seems like you could get exposure to a much more diverse group of cultures, identities, etc. this way with a single program.

(I think this may be pretty close to what Thermal has been asking.)

I'd be all for that. I would even have little argument against one of those vetted volunteers being a drag queen. Not my favorite, but within a mix of many different readers with many different costumes and from many different backgrounds? Sure, why not.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Because unless you give minorities space, they will get drowned out by the majority, even IF the majority is operating with zero ill intent. And some people see value in giving minorities that voice.

I eagerly await your explanation as to why drag queens are a minority in any rational sense of the term.

 

[Thermal]

Again this is the "Why ain't there not White History Month?" argument.

Important: no one is saying "why aren't special cishet storyhours represented too?" We have been saying the exact opposite, that the CisHet Story Hour would be just as offensive, and actually more so.

I mean, why is "don't treat people like circus clowns if you don't want them treated like circus clowns" so contentious?

 

[Darat]

Or, perhaps, the adults have had absolutely no exposure at all to Drag Queens and would like to start with something simple, not sexual, and beneficial to their children. Maybe they're trying to reverse their own biases and want to be proactive in making sure their children don't form them like the adults did.
….snip…

I think you can also consider the benefits for the parents. These are events where the parents accompany the kids, this may be a way for parents to meet other parents with some similar views, given what we’ve told about some areas in the USA by folk in this thread it seems as if that could be beneficial.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This isn't the only story hour available in Houston. As I said, and posted upthread, there are at least a dozen different story hours in Houston. They range from all sorts of themes. It's not like every story hour in Houston is of the drag variety. In fact, as far as I can tell, this is the ONLY one. That's it. One. One individual DQSH. Then there are a dozen +, could be several dozen, that have absolutely nothing at all in any way, shape or form with Drag Queens at all.

For some reason the dissenters have this mindset that having drag queens read stories is a need. It's not. It's just one of many different story hours that take place and this one happens to be read by a Drag Queen. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let's be clear though. If this were "Monthly Story Time" and every now and then the reader were a drag queen, that would be quite different. But it's not. This is advertised and explicitly focused on the reader being a drag queen. It's not drag queen STORY HOUR; It's DRAG QUEEN story hour.

 

[plague311]

Or they could go to the library and have both?

I'm not 100% sure what this means, and I'm not being facetious. I genuinely am not sure. The thread started because a group of rectums started a website where adults can "tattle" on Drag Queen's, not even specific to DQSH, that just became thread drift. That being said, if the rectums had their way they would protest anywhere Drag Queens had an event. Library, bar, golf club, etc. You'll have to let me know what I'm missing. I'm a bit...elevated so I'm sure I missed something.

Sure, but it's the odd fixation with this one that makes me stop and stare. The libraries we have been referencing have some kinds of generic story time, but not with featured characters.

Honestly, most of the story hours I've seen aren't even in a library. Here's a link to the top 12, article is a bit older. Here's another one from 2019 and another one here. I'm linking to these to show a few things. First, the DQSH isn't on any of them. The last article is as recent as 2020. Second, there are a ton of themes for story hours, there's one for Olaf, there's one that focuses on nature, there's one with "Miss Alicia". It seems like there are a bunch of different themes that vary from gardening to animals to costumed characters.

Just this one really odd niche type.

Depends on your definition of odd I guess.

It smacks of adult trendiness more than kid's benefits, and adults should be putting the kids first. Are the kiddies helped by passing a mob of protesters?

They could be. Conflict exists in the world, and if the adults doing the protesting had any sense of respect they wouldn't protest it in the first place. You're kind of coming off as accusing the victims here. The people going to this story hour aren't looking for a fight, or an argument. They simply want to enjoy a story hour.

Sounds like something that would scare them more than have them soberly realize the protesters are freaking nuts. The parenting strategy of many is a protective cost/benefit assessment. Seeing a guy in a dress has some entertainment value, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to walk junior past a gang of hostile, uptight weirdos for the light entertainment. Pick ya battles and all.

And some people feel that wilting under the pressure of a bunch of douchebags does nothing to benefit society. While this might not be important to you it seems like others are deciding this is a battle they want to pick. If the protestors win and, as you've said, the people don't show up then what next? This IS an actual slippery slope. As TomB said, there is never an event that everyone agrees with and if the protestors win here then they'll just target something else.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Or, perhaps, the adults have had absolutely no exposure at all to Drag Queens and would like to start with something simple, not sexual, and beneficial to their children. Maybe they're trying to reverse their own biases and want to be proactive in making sure their children don't form them like the adults did.

How does showcasing and presenting an exaggerated caricature of females, with exaggerated sexual characteristics and outlandishly hyperbolized mannerisms, as portrayed by males benefit children?

Is there some great benefit to kids in teaching them that this is what males think females be like?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Sure.

Tell about what 4 and 5 year olds find sexy, Joe. Go on. Entertain me with the sexual proclivities of young children.

*Dryly* Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a pedophile. That's a mature and reasoned stance that you don't look totally ridiculous falling back on over and over.

I was a rapist in the trans thread, make up your mind what kind of predator everyone who isn't you is.

Also you remain like comically bad at actually reading other people's points. I said nothing about what children find sexy, simply that we can't protect children from everything that anyone finds sexy.

I can't tell a woman to not wear high heels or her hair in a bun around children because I find that sexy.

My point was perfectly clear and easy to understand. You aren't being clever by pretending to not understand it and then acting offended at something you made up in your head, again. Yet again.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Second best advice my father ever gave me: "never trust a white man in a suit". I've shortened it to "never trust a white man" and got a lot more mileage out of it.

Not far off from the advice given to females by their mothers and grandmothers throughout time: Never trust a male.

A bit exaggerated, but the truth is still in there. If you're not a rich white male, there's a moderate chance that any random rich white male you run across will try to exploit or take advantage of you. If you're not a white male, there's a moderate chance that any random white male you run across will disadvantage or mistreat you.

If you're female, there's a moderate chance that any random male you run across will view you as prey.

It's not nice, it's certainly not true of all people of the specified category... but its true of enough to make the category itself one to approach with caution.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Desperate attempt to smear.

Yes, I'm smearing pedophiles. I don't think there's anything desperate about doing so. Pedophiles are evil ******* predators that have no place in a decent society.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yes, I'm smearing pedophiles. I don't think there's anything desperate about doing so. Pedophiles are evil ******* predators that have no place in a decent society.

No you're smearing Drag Queens by associating them with pedophiles.

Own your hatred.

 

[JoeMorgue]

THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT PEDOPHILES.

Nod your head if you understand that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Are you talking about:

• A stripper doing story time advertising her career as a stripper?
• A parent volunteering to read at story time who happens to work as a stripper?
• A pole dancer? (Note: Pole dancer is not a synonym of stripper.)

I don't think anyone is advocating that stripping be held up as a model career. But some things that come from exotic dance (tango, pole dancing) a legitimate forms of dance and exercise these days.

I'm talking about STRIPPER Story Hour, as akin to DRAG QUEEN Story Hour.

Would you have a problem with a soldier reading at story hour? I mean their job description literally includes killing people if necessary. (For the record, I have no problem with soldiers. Two of my kids went into the military.)

I've got a massive military family. Even so, I would still likely have a bit of a problem with "ARTILLERYMAN Story Hour" or "SNIPER Story Hour", with the caveat that such an emphasis might be reasonable if performed on a military base for military dependents.

First...Flow Job. I'll agree that the performer should not use that name in front of an audience of children. You've mentioned that performer several times. Do the other DQST use suggestive names for DQST? Is his/her behavior representative, or is it just the outrageous example being presented as the norm? (drag performers aren't trans, but their characters are meant to be female so I don't know which pronouns to use...)

Somewhere you mentioned kids being invited to roll on top of the performer. That sounds odd and unacceptable whether the reader is a drag queen, a doctor, or a carpenter. Are you sure this is not a case of using an outlier individual to characterize the group?

I understand you consider drag to be a harmful caricature of women. Whether I agree or not, that is your strongest argument against DQST.

Your second best argument is that most of the drag acts perform in an environment akin to burlesque, which is adult themed. (Though I should note that a lot of acts like Abbott and Costello started their acts in Burlesque theaters. Presumably, they modified their act for the audience.)

It's not really necessary to paint drag performers as a group as pedophiles, perverts, or otherwise bad people.

It was not my intent to paint the entire category of drag performers as pedos. But I do observe that DQSH in particular appears to be a ripe ground for predators to take advantage of. That there are relatively few DQSH events overall, and there have been multiple cases of inappropriate behavior, inappropriate names, as well as possession of child pornography, and convictions of sexual offenses against children from among the relatively few DQSH events over the past few year suggests that there is dramatically insufficient safeguarding in place. Enough so that one might think a prudent library or school might suspend the entirety of such events until it has been shown to put solid safeguarding policies into place.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And the evidence is that this is what many libraries do. Often the reading hours are ran by the library staff.

We are talking about just drag story hour in libraries in this thread because the theme of this thread is drag, it appears that for some reason readings by folk doing a drag act need additional scrutiny than a Harry Potter themed act and so on.

Well... and the fact that they're advertised and communicated as DRAG QUEEN story hour, not as Story Hour (this month featuring a drag queen).

 

[plague311]

It's not drag queen STORY HOUR; It's DRAG QUEEN story hour.

To you, yes.