Drag Shows!!

[Warp12]

What mission? I asked you before to post a link to this "mission".

We already discussed it.

Jonathan Hamilt, who co-founded the New York chapter as a nonprofit, said that as of June 2019, DSH has 35 U.S. and five international chapters. The program strives to "instill the imagination and play of gender fluidity of childhood and gives kids glamorous, positive, and unabashedly queer role models".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_Queen_Story_Hour

 

[arthwollipot]

That's your "mission"???

Okay.

Now tell me exactly what's wrong with it.

 

[Stacyhs]

Some people are just immune to logic and facts. You cannot convince them otherwise, so why bother?

 

[Warp12]

No, I'm not. But again, this is reality, not opinion. Nobody is harmed by seeing a drag show. Nobody's child is harmed by drag storytime. Show me otherwise.

It would be hard for me to show you anything that you might consider harm. Your values are different than those who find the concept repulsive, and do not want their young children subjected to it. That doesn't mean your values are better, just different.

There are a lot of social issues people disagree on. There isn't always a right and wrong. Especially when it comes to how someone wishes to raise their children.

 

[Warp12]

That's your "mission"???

Okay.

Now tell me exactly what's wrong with it.

I'm not repeating myself on this. We already had this exact discussion a few posts back.

My personal peeves about Drag Queens are of little consequence in the big picture. That is just something to nitpick on an internet forum.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm not repeating myself on this. We already had this exact discussion a few posts back.

No, we did not. In fact, what you said was:

Whether I personally do or not, does that matter?

In other words, you avoided answering the question.

Why are drag shows age-inappropriate, in your opinion?

 

[arthwollipot]

It would be hard for me to show you anything that you might consider harm. Your values are different than those who find the concept repulsive, and do not want their young children subjected to it. That doesn't mean your values are better, just different.

There are a lot of social issues people disagree on. There isn't always a right and wrong. Especially when it comes to how someone wishes to raise their children.

Different people are different, yes. When someone's opinion is based in transphobia, homophobia or otherwise religious bigotry, I question the appropriateness of that opinion, and I will openly disagree with it.

They're not saying that they want drag storytime stopped because it's icky. They're saying that they want drag storytime stopped because they believe that their children will be somehow harmed by it, which is completely bogus. I'm just trying to get to the root of why they believe this bogusity.

 

[Warp12]

No, we did not. In fact, what you said was:

In other words, you avoided answering the question.

Why are drag shows age-inappropriate, in your opinion?

Yes, I am intentionally not taking the conversation there. It is a waste of time.

I have earlier stated that I am not suggesting an outright ban. But rather age-appropriate restrictions. It should be enough for me to say I don't want my young child to have access to it; whether or not I can be standing over them at every moment of the day, or at every venue such an event might be presented.

Parents have a legitimate right to these concerns.

 

[Upchurch]

Parents have a legitimate right to these concerns.

So? No one is forcing them to go.

 

[Warp12]

Drag Story Hour is a storytelling program designed for children ages 3-8. A local drag artist trained by children’s librarians will read picture books, sing songs, do movement activities, and provide an age-appropriate introduction to the concept of drag as a form of dressup and play.

I mean, with events proclaiming they are going to teach kids 3-8 to dress in drag, is it any wonder some parents have concerns? One thing I haven't been able to track down are any standardized rules and requirements for attendance. Most that I find have an age range, but nothing specified about parental consent or parent/guardian accompanying the child. Age ranges vary widely, it seems.

Seems like legislation may be required to ensure age-appropriate measures are in place.

 

[arthwollipot]

So? No one is forcing them to go.

Warp12's concern appears to be about getting unexpectedly blindsided when he's not expecting it. Like, if he's taking his kids to the library, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to want to do, and there happens to be drag queens there reading to children. And more importantly he's advocating that conservative opinions should not be silenced, and with that I agree.

For various reasons I've developed a certain amount of respect for Warp12. I think it's important that he and other people with a more conservative outlook bring those opinions to the forum. But I also think that those opinions should not remain unexamined.

It is my opinion that children are not harmed by knowing that drag queens exist and that when they take the makeup off they're ordinary people just like anyone else. I think this opinion is grounded in reality and the fact that I've known more than a few drag queens in my time and they are among the most kind and thoughtful people I've ever met. I think opposition to them is irrational and I would like people to think about subjects like this more rationally.

I did not hide things from my kids. From quite early on they were aware that adults had sex, that gay and trans people existed and were regular people like anyone else, and that Santa wasn't real and was just a fun game that people played at Christmas time. I don't think it's healthy to conceal these facts from kids.

 

[arthwollipot]

I mean, with events proclaiming they are going to teach kids 3-8 to dress in drag

Please quote the section which says that they're going to teach kids to dress in drag.

 

[Warp12]

Please quote the section which says that they're going to teach kids to dress in drag.

Seems pretty clear they are pushing that idea, to me...I'm not saying an actual course on how to apply make-up and pick out your dress.

...and provide an age-appropriate introduction to the concept of drag as a form of dressup and play.

"Play" kinda seals it for me, the notion they are pushing the idea as for these young children to do so. I'm pretty sure plenty of leftists would be fine if they were handing out make-up kits, though. And if it is their kid, fine.

 

[arthwollipot]

An "introduction to the concept" is not the same thing as teaching kids to do it. But I see absolutely nothing wrong with demonstrating to kids that it's okay to play dress-ups.

 

[Warp12]

Warp12's concern appears to be about getting unexpectedly blindsided when he's not expecting it. Like, if he's taking his kids to the library, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to want to do, and there happens to be drag queens there reading to children. And more importantly he's advocating that conservative opinions should not be silenced, and with that I agree.

Also, I am not sure about every library's policies for children. But I can tell you, by age 8 I was a "latch-key" kid. Meaning, I had a house key and was unattended for much of the day. So, many kids like that might just wind up at the library, I imagine. So, you know, I think the discussion of age-appropriate restrictions is very relevant to this topic.

Or at least a relevant concern for parents.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, I am intentionally not taking the conversation there. It is a waste of time.

I have earlier stated that I am not suggesting an outright ban. But rather age-appropriate restrictions. It should be enough for me to say I don't want my young child to have access to it; whether or not I can be standing over them at every moment of the day, or at every venue such an event might be presented.

Parents have a legitimate right to these concerns.

What makes you think they do? Outside of drag queens at Gay Pride parades drag queen shows usually take place at nightclubs where it requires ID to even enter.

But Oh My God? Your children must be protected from individuals who are different.

You think hiding the human experience from your children will make them grow up to be healthy and well adjusted? But hey I get it. Racism, sexism, hatred and bigotry must be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

Got to pass on that bigotry to the next generation.

 

[arthwollipot]

Also, I am not sure about every library's policies for children. But I can tell you, by age 8 I was a "latch-key" kid. Meaning, I had a house key and was unattended for much of the day. So, many kids like that might just wind up at the library, I imagine. So, you know, I think the discussion of age-appropriate restrictions is very relevant to this topic.

Or at least a relevant concern for parents.

Times have changed. In most places I think the above would now be considered criminal neglect. I certainly wasn't given the run of the house unsupervised until at least 14.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Also, I am not sure about every library's policies for children. But I can tell you, by age 8 I was a "latch-key" kid. Meaning, I had a house key and was unattended for much of the day. So, many kids like that might just wind up at the library, I imagine. So, you know, I think the discussion of age-appropriate restrictions is very relevant to this topic.

Or at least a relevant concern for parents.

Same with me, keys and going to school,. making lunch etc completely on my own...

But can't you see that that's evidence of Parents having trust in their kids to self-supervise? My parents trusted me, and yours clearly trusted you, to either deal with weird stuff on your own or come to them for help and advice.
For kids, most of what adults do makes no sense and is done with weird rituals and in strange outfits. But kids just accept it, temporarily, without having to have a moral opinion about everything - that's the parents ' projection, not the kids reality.

I can't help thinking that parents who are genuinely worried about Drag Shows either had a very ****** childhood themselves or think they are doing a very ****** job at parenting. Both are legitimate concerns, but they have nothing to do with Drag Shows.

 

[arthwollipot]

Also, I think it's important to make the distinction between drag shows, which as acbytesla pointed out tend to take place mostly in clubs that already have minimum age requirements, and Drag Queen Story Hour and related events, which are specifically for children.

It's actually interesting to read the Wikipedia link that Warp12 posted.

"Just like an actor can do an R-rated movie and a G-rated kids’ movie, we have different levels of how we entertain and how we can put on our character as well."[23]

...

The ALA responded by affirming its support for DSH events, stating that it "strongly opposes any effort to limit access to information, ideas and programmes that patrons wish to explore" and "includes a commitment to combating marginalisation and underrepresentation within the communities served by libraries through increased understanding of the effects of historical exclusion."[28]

...

"Anyone who thinks drag isn’t for children is wrong" said Cummings, "Drag is expression, and children are such judgment-free beings; they don’t really care what you’re wearing, just what you’re performing."[31]

...

West’s responded to critics who question if children are too young to experience drag, saying, "Drag is an opportunity for anyone – including and especially children – to reconsider the masks we are all forced to wear daily.”[30] West added, "Children are inundated with implicit imagery from media about what is 'boy' and what is 'girl.' And I believe that almost all kids are really less concerned about playing with a toy that's supposedly aligned to their gender, and more concerned with playing with toys that speak to them."[30]

 

[bruto]

Whether I personally do or not, does that matter? Why? What should matter is there are a lot of people who do not consider it age-appropriate. You know, a lot of things with adult themes exist...rape, murder, orgies, 40-hour work weeks. Not all are age-appropriate for very young children, and nobody should be trying to discredit a parent's concern.

Essentially that is what you seem to be trying to do: present the case that these parents concerns are bogus, or of no merit. Well, I disagree...as do these parents.

It's not a question of whether the concerns are bogus, but who is responsible for what, and who gets to make the rules for everyone.

One thing that seems to lack clarification here is how "very young" those very young children are. Because I would worry if very young children were out loose on the city streets without parental supervision.

I don't think it's discrediting a parent's concern to say that their concern is not mine, and that permitting my point of view is less discrediting of theirs than forbidding it is discrediting of mine.

Of course this depends a little on how you interpret the meaning of the site which is the subject of this thread. I think it naive to believe it is aimed at voicing concerns and exercising free speech. I believe it is aimed at creating action to disrupt and forbid the things that the site operators consider, in their floridly bigoted language, to be inappropriate, and to mobilize efforts to legislate those events and the life choices they represent, out of existence.

Reasonable precautions to protect kids from harm are not bogus, but any idea that this site is really about that is. It is about conduct the site author declares "degenerate," an author who specifically prides herself on seeking conflict (her word) against "the depravity of the left," and who seeks legislation on the subject. I think you would be at best a dupe if you believe this is as far as the author's concern goes. This is not the writing of someone who has a respect for human rights other than her own.

This site may look to some to be about whether kids should be indoctrinated, but it's really about how.