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Dr Phil promotes "Satanic Ritual Abuse" conspiracy theory

douglas mesner said:
To clarify a point I made above:
"They protest that the critics of DID/MPD have not worked in the "field", meaning they've never given therapy to the DID/MPD afflicted. Strictly speaking, this isn't true. People like Paul McHugh have taken on such clients and when he failed to humor their personality changes, they simply stopped."
Of course, the point here is that DID/MPD doesn't exist in the clients of those who don't believe in the condition because the condition relies upon a therapy or social context that creates it.
It's similar to the argument that false memory research -- such as Elizabeth Loftus's experiments to implant false memories in subjects such as early memories of being lost in a mall -- are irrelevant for the fact that these aren't truly TRAUMATIC memories, and there is no evidence, the argument goes, that traumatic false memories can be implanted.
This isn't true, either, of course, but it seems like a safe place to bring the argument because nobody is going to approve an experiment to intentionally implant false memories of sexual abuse or satanic cult antics. However, Richard McNally at Harvard has demonstrated that traumatic memories of alien abduction act the same as real traumas in the minds of true believers. Also, similar to the Lost In The Mall experiment, subjects were made to create false memories of being attacked by a dog. (Lack of citation, I know, but still some number of posts off from being able to post links. This stuff is readily searchable though, if anybody is so inclined...)
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There was a case years ago where a woman sued her father for using her in a satanic ritual and raping her. He didn't do it. The woman had many mental issues. Her psychiatrist helped her mount a massive law suit against him and on the show (a 20/20) type deal the interviewers basically showed the Dr that the information was wrong. The Dr. said he knew it didn't happen but part of his "therapy" was helping the client get closure on this.

It does piss me off as someone who went through what I did growing up. I am particularly sensitive to false rape accusations based on my own experiences.

I understand triggering because it's happened to me many times (even on here where I'm pretty open about things) but it really upsets me to see people co opt real trauma for false accusations.

I still have tremendous sympathy for the women who are going through this, because obviously they are traumatized in some way. But I get angry at people who facilitate lying.
 
When using the services a therapist, as I did during my divorce, it's a good idea to 'pre-screen' the professional you plan on seeing. I was pretty up-front with the counselors I spoke with about my atheism and materialism. I found that the therapists who held idealist and theistic views were very frank about it, which I appreciated. I suppose one should add questions about repressed memories when they vet potential psychologists now days.
 
truethat said:
There was a case years ago where a woman sued her father for using her in a satanic ritual and raping her. He didn't do it. The woman had many mental issues. Her psychiatrist helped her mount a massive law suit against him and on the show (a 20/20) type deal the interviewers basically showed the Dr that the information was wrong. The Dr. said he knew it didn't happen but part of his "therapy" was helping the client get closure on this.

It does piss me off as someone who went through what I did growing up. I am particularly sensitive to false rape accusations based on my own experiences.

I understand triggering because it's happened to me many times (even on here where I'm pretty open about things) but it really upsets me to see people co opt real trauma for false accusations.

I still have tremendous sympathy for the women who are going through this, because obviously they are traumatized in some way. But I get angry at people who facilitate lying.
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I often hear this excuse also -- that it really doesn't matter what the truth of the matter is because these "memories" be they true or false, need to be resolved either way. This ignores the accusation that these memories were the result of bad therapy and not preexisting manifestations of some other problem. However, even if they were, the truth absolutely DOES matter in how one treats the situation. To say that the truth of the "memory" has no bearing on the therapy (as Colin Ross essentially does in his introduction to 22 Faces) is the ultimate in reckless therapy. How can anybody say that it doesn't really matter whether it is true that you were abused by particular individuals or not? If it is NOT true, surely we wouldn't want to help cultivate a belief that it is. How could that possibly be therapeutic?
And it is quite apparent how ANTI-therapeutic it is. People I've spoken with who have been indoctrinated into this conspiracy theory are severely and obviously emotionally crippled, and sadly convinced that the therapy keeps them from being worse. However, it is obvious -- when the idea of "triggering" keeps them from considering disconfirming evidence, and they have been trained to view the world from a suspicious, paranoid framework that has extended whatever abuse they may possibly have suffered into a world-wide satanic plot -- that the "therapy" has greatly undermined their ability to think sanely and critically.
 
I know Roma found her way out of this rabbit hole. Are there other success stories?

It must be incredibly difficult. They must accept that so many things are lies:

Satanic Ritual Abuse
Recovered Memories
Multiple Personalities.

This is woo built on woo.
 
couchsloth said:
I'm kinda surprised that this Satanic rituals/repressed-memories nonsense is still being taken seriously by so many.
What do these people think of the Daycare sex-abuse hysteria of the 1980's-90's?
Didn't they learn anything from these false cases of ritual sex abuse?
Or perhaps they just think those daycare workers got away with it.
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Got away with it? Sure, if by "got away with it" you mean were unjustly jailed because quite a few of them were.
 
Orphia Nay said:
I know Roma found her way out of this rabbit hole. Are there other success stories?

It must be incredibly difficult. They must accept that so many things are lies:

Satanic Ritual Abuse
Recovered Memories
Multiple Personalities.

This is woo built on woo.
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Oh, yeah. I've spoken to a good number of success stories. I've interviewed some others on Process dot org. Jeanette Bartha underwent this therapeutic abuse at the hands of one Richard Hicks in Philadelphia. Now she has a website where she maintains information and news about psychiatric abuse. Meredith Maran wrote a book, My Lie, about coming to realize that her false memories were a lie that ruined her relationship with her father. Sheri Storm underwent this absurd therapy at the hands of a raving moron named Kenneth C. Olson, who also treated a woman named Nadeen Cool (whom he convinced had an alter of a duck. He also performed an exorcism on her). Both Storm and Cool snapped out of it and sued the clearly mentally defective Olson, however, he is still in practice.
There are countless others, and it has been terribly difficult for them to climb their way out of the quagmire of misinformation and delusion, especially as these have been instilled in them as their very identities. Often (like in joining a malicious cult) they have been convinced that their families are abusive, thus they cut ties with them. Then they re-establish a "family" with "support" people who cultivate their false beliefs with them. When they come to retract, they are turning their backs on everything. They probably have to come to grips with the idea that they have falsely accused a family member, who may or may not ever forgive them. The False Memory Syndrome Foundation acts as a resource and network for these people, and the amount of irresponsible misinformation the therapeutic frauds have put out about them is enormous. Of course, they are a CIA front, and they are strictly concerned with protecting abusers.
 
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cosmicaug said:
Got away with it? Sure, if by "got away with it" you mean were unjustly jailed because quite a few of them were.
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There's only one aspect of this which is even worse than the innocent being jailed for crimes which never existed outside of the false memories created by irresponsible "therapists", and that's the innocent being jailed for crimes which were committed while the guilty party got away.

The West Memphis Three case is a prime example of Satanic Panic perverting the course of a criminal case, the Wimbledon Common murder is another. I think there was also an element in the Meredith Kercher murder.

Then there's the sad spectacle of Noreen Gosch, whose son went missing at the age of 13, and thanks to Gunderson et al, she is convinced that he was kidnapped by the CIA and subjected to mind control yada yada.
 
And wasn't there also a woman who accused her father of murdering her childhood friend after she'd fallen prey to false memory syndrome? He was convicted, iirc and then it was overturned on appeal. Sorry, can't remember the names involved.
 
truethat said:
...It does piss me off as someone who went through what I did growing up. I am particularly sensitive to false rape accusations based on my own experiences.
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A few years back I recall overhearing a co-worker telling her friend that she just "knew" that her teenaged daughter's recent nightmare about "a man with no face" meant that her ex-husband (the child's father) must have sexually molested her. No other evidence, just the one, seemingly meaningless dream -- but that was enough apparently.

Not that she'd have an agenda or anything.
 
Strawberry said:
There's only one aspect of this which is even worse than the innocent being jailed for crimes which never existed outside of the false memories created by irresponsible "therapists", and that's the innocent being jailed for crimes which were committed while the guilty party got away.

The West Memphis Three case is a prime example of Satanic Panic perverting the course of a criminal case, the Wimbledon Common murder is another. I think there was also an element in the Meredith Kercher murder.

Then there's the sad spectacle of Noreen Gosch, whose son went missing at the age of 13, and thanks to Gunderson et al, she is convinced that he was kidnapped by the CIA and subjected to mind control yada yada.
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!!! You mention Gunderson! I wrote a detailed little biography of Gunderson that I put together from his FBI file, News reports, and even conversations I personally had with the old fool! Alas, I think only 1 or 2 people read it. I was thinking about posting it as a topic in this forum when I'm able (though I'm not sure the etiquette in promoting your own material). I include James Randi being interviewed by Anderson Cooper regarding Sylvia Brown, where Cooper mentioned that Gunderson was quoted as saying the Brown is very accurate. "That's a senior FBI agent. Are you telling me he's wrong?" Anyway, the title of my piece is: "Ted Gunderson: Death of a Public Paranoid", and I'd love know what you think of it if you find the time to read it. He used his former FBI status to help spread delusional false memory based panic wherever he went.
 
douglas mesner said:
!!! You mention Gunderson! I wrote a detailed little biography of Gunderson that I put together from his FBI file, News reports, and even conversations I personally had with the old fool! Alas, I think only 1 or 2 people read it. I was thinking about posting it as a topic in this forum when I'm able (though I'm not sure the etiquette in promoting your own material). I include James Randi being interviewed by Anderson Cooper regarding Sylvia Brown, where Cooper mentioned that Gunderson was quoted as saying the Brown is very accurate. "That's a senior FBI agent. Are you telling me he's wrong?" Anyway, the title of my piece is: "Ted Gunderson: Death of a Public Paranoid", and I'd love know what you think of it if you find the time to read it. He used his former FBI status to help spread delusional false memory based panic wherever he went.
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Link: http://www.process.org/discept/2012/07/31/ted-gunderson-death-of-a-public-paranoid/
 
douglas mesner said:
!!! You mention Gunderson! I wrote a detailed little biography of Gunderson that I put together from his FBI file, News reports, and even conversations I personally had with the old fool! Alas, I think only 1 or 2 people read it. I was thinking about posting it as a topic in this forum when I'm able (though I'm not sure the etiquette in promoting your own material). I include James Randi being interviewed by Anderson Cooper regarding Sylvia Brown, where Cooper mentioned that Gunderson was quoted as saying the Brown is very accurate. "That's a senior FBI agent. Are you telling me he's wrong?" Anyway, the title of my piece is: "Ted Gunderson: Death of a Public Paranoid", and I'd love know what you think of it if you find the time to read it. He used his former FBI status to help spread delusional false memory based panic wherever he went.
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I'd be very interested to read it, I'm going to follow Prof Yaffle's link right now and read it.

Meantime, have you ever heard of "Dr" Dale Griffis, and if so what is your opinion on him?
 
douglas mesner said:
!!! You mention Gunderson! I wrote a detailed little biography of Gunderson that I put together from his FBI file, News reports, and even conversations I personally had with the old fool! Alas, I think only 1 or 2 people read it. I was thinking about posting it as a topic in this forum when I'm able (though I'm not sure the etiquette in promoting your own material). I include James Randi being interviewed by Anderson Cooper regarding Sylvia Brown, where Cooper mentioned that Gunderson was quoted as saying the Brown is very accurate. "That's a senior FBI agent. Are you telling me he's wrong?" Anyway, the title of my piece is: "Ted Gunderson: Death of a Public Paranoid", and I'd love know what you think of it if you find the time to read it. He used his former FBI status to help spread delusional false memory based panic wherever he went.
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I loved it! Very detailed and interesting. I was especially intrigued by the Macdonald material. I recently came across the Stoeckley confession and had mistakenly believed it might represent some basis for reasonable doubt. Now that you furnished its provenance, I can see this "evidence" can be pretty much dismissed as utterly bogus. As for Gunderson himself, he was delusional to be sure but he also seems to have had the wherewithal to make a second career out of it.
 
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Strawberry said:
I'd be very interested to read it, I'm going to follow Prof Yaffle's link right now and read it.

Meantime, have you ever heard of "Dr" Dale Griffis, and if so what is your opinion on him?
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Yeah, I know about Griffis, and he was just a silly panic purveyor. However, without digging through my notes, I'm hesitant to say what I "know" about him, as a lot of material I have on him is hearsay and I can't off-hand remember which egregious acts of his I more-or-less confirmed. I had many talks with a woman who used to work quite closely with him, and she had some remarkable things to say about Griffis being a con-man and being involved in outright criminal activity, but for various reasons I think I would be irresponsible to use her testimony uncritically.
I also had a lot of salacious hearsay reports about Gunderson and his sexual antics with his side-show of "brain-washed" former government/Illuminati sex-slaves. If I had gotten, say, one of the side-show to say that herself, or somebody who credibly claimed to witness it, I may have included that in my piece -- unfortunately, the best I got were people who were told by other people...
BTW, I think Griffis was taken on in a book -- perhaps the book that debunked Warnke...? I'll have to look it up...
I still have great material regarding Gunderson and his McMartin Preschool "investigation". I kind of put off writing the 2nd Gunderson piece because I literally think that with 2 more people reading the 1st piece, I doubled my reads from the previous months.
 
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Much of the difficulty around Ritual Satanic Abuse is related to an understanding of 'revovered memory'. Psychologists are notoriously slow with their research. Elizabeth Loftus, and only Elizabeth Loftus, gets cited all the time because she was only psychogist doing relevant research when RSA and revovered memory became issues. It's taken a very long time for research psychologists address the problem.

Some more recent papers that are interesting in this context are,
A New Solution to the Recovered Memory Debate
Compares people who report recovered memory of sexual abuse with people who report having been sexually abused but for various reasons have not thought about the incident for a long time. "They either failed to think about their abuse for many years or forgot their previous recollections, and they recalled them spontaneously after encountering reminders outside of psychotherapy." People who recalled these memories outside of therapy had the same rate of corroboration as people who never forgot their abuse. The conslusion is that "recalling childhood sexual abuse after many years is not the same thing as having recalled a previously repressed memory of trauma."

There are several papers that deal with accounts of recovered memory that were then retracted.
The Construction of False Memory Syndrome: The Experience of Retractors
This paper is not available on the net. I have a paper copy. If anyone is interested in it, send me a pm with your e-mail and I'll see if I can send it to you.
 
I don't think a lot about things. That's what triggering can me to me. I'll start going along in a conversation and then sail off the rails in a way that's traumatic.

That I can understand. Or just a person shutting down or flipping out.

But repressed memories don't seem real in this regard.
 
douglas mesner said:
Yeah, I know about Griffis, and he was just a silly panic purveyor. However, without digging through my notes, I'm hesitant to say what I "know" about him, as a lot of material I have on him is hearsay and I can't off-hand remember which egregious acts of his I more-or-less confirmed. I had many talks with a woman who used to work quite closely with him, and she had some remarkable things to say about Griffis being a con-man and being involved in outright criminal activity, but for various reasons I think I would be irresponsible to use her testimony uncritically.
I also had a lot of salacious hearsay reports about Gunderson and his sexual antics with his side-show of "brain-washed" former government/Illuminati sex-slaves. If I had gotten, say, one of the side-show to say that herself, or somebody who credibly claimed to witness it, I may have included that in my piece -- unfortunately, the best I got were people who were told by other people...
BTW, I think Griffis was taken on in a book -- perhaps the book that debunked Warnke...? I'll have to look it up...
I still have great material regarding Gunderson and his McMartin Preschool "investigation". I kind of put off writing the 2nd Gunderson piece because I literally think that with 2 more people reading the 1st piece, I doubled my reads from the previous months.
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Dale Griffis was an expert witness for the prosecution in a death penalty case. The defendant was 19 years old and was convicted and sentenced to lethal injection.

I'd like to hear whatever you have to say about Dale Griffis.:cool:
 
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