Dr. Colin Ross's challenge

[petre]

So far, the main thing I have learned from this discussion is that in future publications I will need to clarify the extramission/emanation/emission distinction and how I am using the term extramission. Otherwise, the discussion can get bogged down in semantics.

Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to commend Mr. Ross for standing up and admitting that his claim has no merit and that he will be withdrawing from the challenge.

At least, that's how *I* read his comment here.

 

[Roma]

Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to commend Mr. Ross for standing up and admitting that his claim has no merit and that he will be withdrawing from the challenge.

At least, that's how *I* read his comment here.

nominated

(okay that's clever but completely over his head)


petre,
you can expect Colin Ross to post a comment shortly
thanking you for your continuing support of his application.

 

[not daSkeptic]

Fortunately, I also suspect that Randi is ... just stringing him along.

This is basically what I've been doing too. So long as the discussion remains public and actively indexed by Google, I see no reason not to let Dr. Ross continue to make a fool of himself. Even if he is trying to generate publicity for a book, that just says to the world that he thinks people are too stupid to see through his BS. I think it's good that message is out there for all to see.

 

[Loss Leader]

He has now gone back to the extramission stuff, because his new tactic is to relate his claim to the statements made about his Pigasus award.

I'm not saying that I know one way or the other. But an easy way for him to trick us is to present himself as the subject of ridicule (without making it too obvious) so that we can congratulate ourselves on our cleverness at finding him out while failing to notice the true extent of his deviousness.

Sadly, i suspect you're both right and wrong. Dr. Ross' behavior now relates entirely to his Pigasus award but it has nothing to do with being devious. I suspect that the underlying issue is that he is deeply motivated by humiliation. I read him as remarkably narcisistic. His ego absolutely cannot stand to consider itself anything other than a genius.

This causes him to make more and more outlandish claims that distance him from normal society. He feels superior, he interprets mainstream rejection as proof of his superiority, and he uses mainstream revulsion of him to demonstrate to himself that the mainstream would be a terrible place to be, anyway.

I believe Dr. Ross' own training would easily allow him to identify all of this if it were happening to a stranger. Unfortunately, the real paranormal claim would be if he were able to gain any insight into his own psyche.

My point is that the more we tell him he's wrong, the more entrenched his behavior will become. The best bet is to try something like this:

Dr. Ross, I would really enjoy talking to you about your experiences, but all of your talk about the MDC is making that difficult. Maybe we could put that aside and discuss some of your other interests.

 

[Madalch]

Then he went on to relate how a guy he worked with overdosed an elephant with almost half a gram of LSD because he didn't know to equate dosages by blood volume, not body weight.

Now I have a mental image of a rampaging elephant on a bad trip.

Of course, that seems like it would be more productive than a lot of this thread.....

 

[Jeff Corey]

Now I have a mental image of a rampaging elephant on a bad trip.

Of course, that seems like it would be more productive than a lot of this thread.....

Here's an image. http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_history4.shtml

 

[Roma]

This is basically what I've been doing too. So long as the discussion remains public and actively indexed by Google, I see no reason not to let Dr. Ross continue to make a fool of himself. Even if he is trying to generate publicity for a book, that just says to the world that he thinks people are too stupid to see through his BS. I think it's good that message is out there for all to see.

Yes please, this is a good way for the public to understand what a raving lunatic he is.
And hopefully save the lives of some of his patients.

However I have talked with Doug Mesner recently, the guy who wrote that article last month.
Apparently Colin Ross' cult followers have been reading about this and have come to the conclusion that we all are part of a CIA disinformation conspiracy.

They still owe me major back-pay

 

[Myriad]

It seems like everyone is getting close to having said everything they have to say at this point. At least, I am.
For the JREF Challenge, it is the fact that the JREF has accepted my Challenge as a claim of the paranormal and moved into the negotiation of protocol phase that counts. All theories and mechanisms are irrelevant to the challenge by JREF rules - all that counts is demonstrating the phenomeenon.

The claim that was accepted as paranormal is, according to Dr. Ross, this:

I claim that I can send a beam of energy out of my eyes, capture it in a special set of goggles I have built, and then use the energy to make a tone play out of a speaker.

So the question is, as I have asked before with no reply, what powers the speaker? Is it, as is claimed, the energy from the eyes captured by the goggles? Or is there a completely non-paranormal battery, or a plug in a wall socket?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[not daSkeptic]

Apparently Colin Ross' cult followers have been reading about this and have come to the conclusion that we all are part of a CIA disinformation conspiracy.

The thing I find so funny about many conspiracy theories is the presumption of interest. Given all of the things government agencies and corporations have on their plate, why on Earth would they waste their time on people who are so insignificant? But that's the key, isn't it? These people can't accept that they're just another individual amongst billions, and so they buy into a fantasy that makes them special. It's really quite sad.

 

[Toke]

Initially Roos appeared as "just" a con man trying to wiggle something through the MDC.
Now I am a bit in doubt, guess it is possible to be both a con man and to believe in daemonic possession.

 

[blobru]

... Further discussion of the Winer, Toulmin, Schrodinger, Lilienfeld quotes seems unproductive as everyone has stated their positions on that.

Well, not quite everyone.

You see, as promised previously, I was talking this morning to the brother of one of the authors of 50 Great Myths of Popular Psychology -- cited above as Lilienfeld [etal] -- who's very familiar with this book, and its article on "extramission". Indeed, he was also very interested in your rather 'eccentric' interpretation of the authors' work, and the uses to which it is being put (justification for your paranormal claim).

So Prof. Beyerstein said he thought he'd drop by this weekend and have a look himself; and post an opinion or two, perhaps. (Isn't that nice? Someone so close to the core of empirical orthodoxy; his late brother's work cited by you as proof of the suppression of the whole extramission line-of-inquiry by western science!)

Please stay tuned, eh.

 

[sadhatter]

Yes please, this is a good way for the public to understand what a raving lunatic he is.
And hopefully save the lives of some of his patients.

However I have talked with Doug Mesner recently, the guy who wrote that article last month.
Apparently Colin Ross' cult followers have been reading about this and have come to the conclusion that we all are part of a CIA disinformation conspiracy.

They still owe me major back-pay

I have heard this claim before, and i am still wondering at what point in my life i was turned into a cia agent. I mean do they usually have actors as agents? Wouldn't the key to be keeping it low profile?

Or maybe i am just a crappy Cia agent, you know the guy they send to get the coffee.....the EVIL coffee, so it dosn't matter if people know of me.

 

[Toke]

I mean do they usually have actors as agents?

Anonymity could be a problem, but think of the potential advantage, they are supposed to know several roles by rote.

(at one folk festival I experienced some actors idling over dinner, raving loons, or just going through standard roles?)

 

[dropzone]

Drunken actors are fun. Sober Colin Ross? Not so much fun, but he tries.

 

[Colin Ross]

FYI, further to post 246, Dr. Louis Jolyon West was cleared at TOP SECRET on MKULTRA Subproject 43 in 1956, while Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at U of Oklahoma. The project was for studies of dissociated states. This is proven by a letter in the Subproject 43 files dated 29 February 1956 from "[named redacted], M.D., Professor of Psychiatry, Head of Department", combined with the INSTITUTIONAL NOTIFICATIONS provided by the CIA under the FOIA stating that the insititution for Subproject 43 was the U of Oklahoma, and Dr. West's CV stating that he was Chairman of Psychiatry at that time, all of which are in my possession.
Overall, this thread seems to have deteriorated into name-calling, questions of little or no substance, like is my laptop plugged into the wall? (Post 248), and repetition of points previously made. I am therefore signing off. Thank you for the questions and comments.

 

[zooterkin]

Overall, this thread seems to have deteriorated into name-calling, questions of little or no substance, like is my laptop plugged into the wall? (Post 248), and repetition of points previously made.

Possibly because you appeared to ignore the various points put to you, and just repeated the same nonsense based on your willful misinterpretation of 50+ year-old texts.

I am therefore signing off. Thank you for the questions and comments.

Bye.

 

[Loss Leader]

Overall, this thread seems to have deteriorated into name-calling, questions of little or no substance, like is my laptop plugged into the wall? (Post 248), and repetition of points previously made. I am therefore signing off.

Actually, that's not the reason that he's leaving the thread. This is:

So Prof. Beyerstein said he thought he'd drop by this weekend and have a look himself; and post an opinion or two, perhaps. (Isn't that nice? Someone so close to the core of empirical orthodoxy; his late brother's work cited by you as proof of the suppression of the whole extramission line-of-inquiry by western science!)

If there's one thing that narcissists can't handle, it's humiliation. Some confrontation, especially from people they don't view as equals, makes them feel more superior. But a direct rebuff from a peer is just too much to handle.

The ironic thing is that Dr. Ross is qualified to consider this possibility but now he's gone.

 

[Roma]

FYI, further to post 246, Dr. Louis Jolyon West was cleared at TOP SECRET on MKULTRA Subproject 43 in 1956, while Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at U of Oklahoma. The project was for studies of dissociated states. This is proven by a letter in the Subproject 43 files dated 29 February 1956 from "[named redacted], M.D., Professor of Psychiatry, Head of Department", combined with the INSTITUTIONAL NOTIFICATIONS provided by the CIA under the FOIA stating that the insititution for Subproject 43 was the U of Oklahoma, and Dr. West's CV stating that he was Chairman of Psychiatry at that time, all of which are in my possession.
Overall, this thread seems to have deteriorated into name-calling, questions of little or no substance, like is my laptop plugged into the wall? (Post 248), and repetition of points previously made. I am therefore signing off. Thank you for the questions and comments.

I have talked with Doug Mesner recently, the guy who wrote that article last month.
Apparently Colin Ross' cult followers have been reading about this and have come to the conclusion that we all are part of a CIA disinformation conspiracy.

Oh Colin Ross you will never "sign off", not as long as you have some way to exploit the JREF, or anything that you can use for your shameless promotion and to feed that killer narcissism of yours.
But the CIA again?
Is that how you really want to end your thread you made to defend your million dollar challenge?
You yourself demanded of all posters here that only comments about your challenge and your paranormal eye beams of energy would be allowed on your thread.
Why would you break your own rules and make your last post about the CIA and MKULTRA?
Would it have anything at all to do with your new book about the CIA and MKULTRA?
Are you hoping that people will now start commenting on the CIA in this thread?
Wouldn't that be a fraudulent use of the James Randi Educational Foundation?
You wouldn't do that would you? Attempted fraud or fraudulent concealment.
It could be a crime or something.

Get help for Christ Sake.

 

[Myriad]

Overall, this thread seems to have deteriorated into name-calling, questions of little or no substance, like is my laptop plugged into the wall? (Post 248)

Actually, the question in post 248 is whether or not the speaker is powered by the energy from your eyes, as your claim (that you say the JREF has accepted) states. A question more directly and substantially relevant to the subject matter of this thread is difficult to imagine.

Will you answer it?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[BC Skeptic]

It's not surprising Ross has dropped out. Subjecting his claim to scrutiny exposes its soft underbelly. On the one hand, his claim has to be paranormal to be eligible for the prize; but on the other hand, various posters won't let him get away with glossing over two things about his 'eminations':

First, in none of his writings, either here or anywhere else, has he claimed to be able to show that these eminations are involved in perception, which is what the original dispute was about. As explained in Lilienfelld [/I]et al[/I], the issue about perception is whether visual perception is like sonar, with the eye sending out something and measuring its echo on the way back (the ancient Greek view), or it is the capturing of light rays refracted off verious surfaces (the view which gained empirical support in the 17th Century). Being able to cite evidence of eminations, even if he could actually show that they are coming from the eyes, does nothing to settle this dispute in favour of the earlier account. Nor would it help for Ross to show that subjects can pick up these eminations through special googles; since we don't use these goggles in normal seeing. Ross has been wilfully obtuse in reading authors such as Lilienfeld et al as denying the existence of eminations from the region of the eye -- it is their role in perception that is at issue.

The second point is whether Ross has identified any eminations not already recognised. Note how cagey he is about details that would allow us to decide this question.

But how do these points relate to the paranormal? here's my take on this: Although it's not part of the definition of "paranormal", most paranormal claims involve notions either thoroughly discredited or rendered jejune by modern science (e., dualism). Refuted scientific theories never die; they just become research programmes for parapsychologists. So if Ross is going to defend a paranormal claim for the test, he's got to be looking for something that even he can see is highly unlikely. His best hope of finding it is to rediscover something nobody doubts the existence of, and call it something else.