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Dowsing by a Skeptic

Originally Posted by Sherman Bay

I tend to discount the ideomotor effect, since I can make a rod or pendulum do exactly what I want anytime without most people noticing. If I can, anyone else can, too.
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I wonder if you could explain what you mean by "discount the ideomotor effect".

The effect can indeed be invoked by oneself just by thinking or imagining the Chevreul pendulum going left to right, in circles, or front to back, without an awareness of consciously moving it. These involuntary movements of the hand are so subtle and tiny as to often not be noticeable to the casual observer, or even by the person holding the pendulum.

The pendulum holder is told to hold it as steady as he can, and try hard not to allow any movement.

For me at least, it is not easy to consciously move a pendulum in circles, for example, with subtle and great enough precision without such purposeful movements being very obvious and noticed by even the most casual observer.

I used the pendulum for years as an amateur hypnotist in college as one device for determining the best subjects. For a very few individuals, it is quite difficult to get the pendulum to move by suggestion. The Chevreul pendulum is also very useful as a parlor trick when claimed to be a lie detector.

From what I understand, some dowsers actually accept the ideomotor effect as the mechanism for causing the rods to move. However, these dowsers believe that the basis for stimulating the body to effect the actual movement to indicate the location of water, is the supernatural or paranormal knowledge provided somehow to the dowser by various and sundry sources...one of which is God.

If I understand SaskMick, he and Ian at the BSD do not even believe that the ideomotor effect is real, despite the videos and the trivially simple way to prove it to oneself--in total privacy, alone. Dowsing is apparently considered by devotees to be a talent that is threatened by attempts to explain it scientifically. Skeptics threaten to violate a sense of special knowledge which can sadly often be a last refuge.
 
I am having problems registering on the BSD forum. I tried to register a week ago but all new registrations require an admin approval and so far nothing. Are they just slow or too restricting on who the let onto their forum?
 
Olowkow said:
Not trying to be mean, but frankly, in my opinion, anyone--dowsing enthusiast or agnostic--viewing this video and trying the experiment for himself, who does not immediately have a Eureka moment concerning the reality of the ideomotor effect is by definition either exhibiting cult like beliefs, being disingenuous or not intelligent enough to grasp its significance.
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Such a great post.
 
phiwum said:
This still allows the assistant to leave clues, consciously or not. Better to use six boxes, with six objects randomly placed under them and roll a die *after* the assistant leaves to determine which object to dowse for.
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I like that idea except that (if I were truly paranoid about potential cheating) there would still be the possibility of the assistant leaving clues as to which object they placed under which box.

However it's done, at some stage someone has to conceal each object and, even if another adjudicator watches them do it, we're going to have to assume a basic element of good faith on their part unless the objects are first concealed in absolutely identical containers and then those are stringently checked by someone else to be certain they are indistinguishable and then those are randomly placed under the boxes by yet another person...
 
bluesjnr said:
A personal plea to Saskmick,

Saskmick, I got to thinking. If you would be good enough to devote around 3-4 days, in total, of your time and apply for the Million Dollar Challenge you could help the following charities when you inevitably win it.

  1. Yubu Development Agency
  2. Women Entrepreneurs Of Saskatchewan Inc We
  3. Lutheran Theological Seminary Saskatoon
  4. Kinsmen Foundation
  5. Sunnyside Adventist Care Centre
  6. Scat Street Cat Rescue Program
  7. Southern Sudan Humanitarian Action Development Agency
  8. Shakespeare On The Saskatchewan Festival
  9. Partners For The Saskatchewan River Basin

There are another 21/2 pages of good causes you could help and you can find them here. I think they are all fairly local to you and you could remain anonymous if you preferred to.

If you'd rather not help these then perhaps going for a straight win would be a good strategy as this would allow you to fund world travel where you could dowse for missing people (especially children). Maybe you could help drought ridden areas on our planet where the death rate caused by drought is 50,000-260,000? In fact, when I think about it, now that you know you can, without a shred of doubt, dowse for anything it kind of places a moral obligation upon you to do something to alleviate such a terrible human tragedy.

I'm 100% certain that you will do nothing to help, despite having the power to do so. If I'm right (and I hope I'm not) can you tell me why you choose to let people die, good causes to flounder and missing people (children) to remain so when all it needs is for you to turn up and dowse.

Please let me know your thoughts and any plans you have to make the most substantial difference to mankind across the globe ever known in the history of the world.

As you ponder, can you ask your mates over in the dowsing forum why they are sitting on their arses doing **** all? They must be inhuman.
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Nomm'ed.
 
FFed said:
I am having problems registering on the BSD forum. I tried to register a week ago but all new registrations require an admin approval and so far nothing. Are they just slow or too restricting on who the let onto their forum?
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I found the same slow response to registration, then, when finally arrived, after a few posts got kicked off for raising awkward questions like why their President was prepared to act as a defence witness for the fraud McCormick. They are a sensitive lot (or few) so please don't go upsetting them. It may inhibit their literally incredible abilities.

Of course, they may be aware of the attention they are getting here and being extra cautious.
 
Dubious Dick said:
I found the same slow response to registration, then, when finally arrived, after a few posts got kicked off for raising awkward questions like why their President was prepared to act as a defence witness for the fraud McCormick. They are a sensitive lot (or few) so please don't go upsetting them. It may inhibit their literally incredible abilities.

Of course, they may be aware of the attention they are getting here and being extra cautious.
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Surely they shouldn't be having a problem figuring out if new applicants are skeptics. Why, since June 20th, SaskMick can dowse for negative energy. He could just vet all the applications with remote dowsing.
 
often mrunderstood said:
<SNIP>
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It is still going because it is testament to the efforts, the very real and sincere efforts, of the vast majority of the participants herein to relieve Saskmick of his notions and beliefs about dowsing as gently as possible. It is still going because this is what the E in JREF is all about.

We'd all love for Mick to be the first ever confirmed dowser in history but we are far more interested in helping him explore and effectively test his new found ability. Hopefully we'll help him see sense and maybe even help him to enjoy this planet and his short time on it for what it is and not what he uncritically hopes it might be.

Whether he chooses to benefit from the advice and help here matters not; we'll keep trying. We might get a little frustrated and out of hand from time to time, but we'll keep trying. When he has gone and another one comes along........ we'll start all over again.
 
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Unexplained is Nirvana

SaskMick said:
I have heard the exact same thing expressed by first time dowsers on several occasions. It's the unexplained that makes it interesting:)
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I hoped by writing my anecdote above, that some younger person would try the experiment. Get two steel coat hangers and, straighten them and bend each in an L shape. Find a place in line and between two water valves on a known water line in a city system and cross the line with the coat hangers, holding one part of the L perpendicular to the ground and the other parts parallel to the ground and see for yourself. If you get a crossing of the parallel parts you have verified this as legitimate.
If I was duped, I'm ok with that.
 
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Fellow Traveler said:
I hoped by writing my anecdote above, that some younger person would try the experiment. Get two steel coat hangers and, straighten them and bend each in an L shape. Find a place in line and between two water valves on a known water line in a city system and cross the line with the coat hangers, holding one part of the L perpendicular to the ground and the other parts parallel to the ground and see for yourself. If you get a crossing of the parallel parts you have verified this as legitimate.
If I was duped, I'm ok with that.
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I don't think anyone here is in doubt that dowsers find stuff where they expect to find stuff.

The only thing that's really being argued over is why Mick seems so reluctant even to attempt dowsing for stuff when he doesn't know in advance where it is.
 
Fellow Traveler said:
I hoped by writing my anecdote above, that some younger person would try the experiment. Get two steel coat hangers and, straighten them and bend each in an L shape. Find a place in line and between two water valves on a known water line in a city system and cross the line with the coat hangers, holding one part of the L perpendicular to the ground and the other parts parallel to the ground and see for yourself. If you get a crossing of the parallel parts you have verified this as legitimate.
If I was duped, I'm ok with that.
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Lots of people here have tried dowsing. We know the rods cross. We know why.

You were not duped. You experienced the ideomotor effect. There is nothing paranormal about it. It does not mean there is anything to dowsing. There is not.
 
Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler
...If you get a crossing of the parallel parts you have verified this as legitimate.
...
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What is legitimate and verifiable is that the human nervous system can in fact cause involuntary movements of muscles whose origins are commands from the subconscious. The ideomotor effect is probably counter intuitive to many people, since we humans like to believe that everything we do is based on our body doing the bidding of our conscious mind.

The cause of the movement of the rods should not even be at issue, since it is a trivially demonstrable parlor trick for anyone honest enough to give it a try. The main question that needs to be resolved for the honest dowser should be:

Do these subconscious commands to move the dowsing rods derive from the mind's use of real world memories, guesses and knowledge or from some supernatural, immaterial or otherwise non-scientifically knowable input?

I strongly disagree with the poster who advises against concerning ourselves with claims such as SaskMick's for reasons which should be too obvious to mention. It doesn't matter a whit whether SaskMick is a troll or not. He gets to believe whatever he wants, while JREF must continue to pride itself with educating the casual lurker or else superstition and misinformed scientific opinion simply flourishes in the absence of such factual information.

A thread such as this one is a conduit, a useful tool for exposing just how far afield some people can go with Medieval beliefs. We all have a duty to try at least to disabuse people of mistaken ideas.
 
Fellow Traveler said:
I hoped by writing my anecdote above, that some younger person would try the experiment. Get two steel coat hangers and, straighten them and bend each in an L shape. Find a place in line and between two water valves on a known water line in a city system and cross the line with the coat hangers, holding one part of the L perpendicular to the ground and the other parts parallel to the ground and see for yourself. If you get a crossing of the parallel parts you have verified this as legitimate.
If I was duped, I'm ok with that.
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:confused:How many "parts" does a bent L shaped steel hanger have? I'm contacting Las Vegas Water District to show me where two water valves are...I'll get practiced up with the coat hangers once I know where everything is
 
showmevegas said:
:confused:How many "parts" does a bent L shaped steel hanger have? I'm contacting Las Vegas Water District to show me where two water valves are...I'll get practiced up with the coat hangers once I know where everything is
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Check out this link. http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Dowsing-or-Divining-Rods

"•Bend two identical pieces of wire into an "L" shape and hold one in each hand by the short part of the "L" so that the long part is parallel with the ground and so they can swing freely from side to side. You can use coat hangers to make these rods. Some dowsers claim certain metals, such as brass, to be more effective."[8]
 
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