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Down wind faster than the wind

The movement forward can be explained by an imbalance in the two opposing forces. Intermittent contact between the wheels and the belt for example, would allow the up-hill component from the propeller to be temporarily greater than down-hill component of direct drag from the belt.
Drive to the propeller from the belt would also be lost during this period, but the momentum of the propeller will keep it spinning for the short periods that it is disengaged, so generating a net force up the belt.

But during that loss of contact, the momentum of the cart would also be lost because of interruption in energy flow to the cart, and drag would slow the cart in relation to the treadmill surface (F=MA). The result of renewed contact would be to average out the loss of momentum experienced by the cart and prop when the tires lose contact, which is directly followed by a spike with the same energy content when the tires regain contact (unless the treadmill surface energy input changed). What you're describing is over-unity in that a force is somehow generated that is greater than the average can account for.

Is that what the over-unity description is meaning for this thread? If the treadmill test was modified to actively cause this loss in contact and thereby increase this over-unity force generation, the forward force on the cart should increase and the prop cart should accelerate quickly up the treadmill surface even if the treadmill was tilted to simulate an uphill road. Would the energy needed to essentially oscillate the treadmill surface have to be figured into the energy balance?

If this over-unity force is required to keep the cart in place on the treadmill, Humber, then I agree that a different explanation is in order.
 
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Now suppose the cart moves a little slower. Several things happen:...


sol, the things you mention are certainly true, and definitely apply in the real world. But I think it's interesting to note that the ideal cart with no losses, but fixed pitch and gearing has a theoretical design speed which is some multiple of the wind. One could change the gearing to increase or decrease that theoretical speed, but that gearing would still have to overcome the real world losses.

Also, my apologies for not responding point-by-point to the many questions and observations. It's just one of those days.
 
Michael, I'd say you have about as firm a grasp on this thing as anyone. I just want to pick one small nit...

The cart isn't propelling air backwards; it's moving through the air. The speed of the air relative to the ground stays constant.


In a perfect world (no losses) this would in fact be true (but of course in that case no energy would be needed or used). In the real world the cart does propel air aft - relative to itself. Relative to the ground it simply slows the wind in its "wake".
 
sol, the things you mention are certainly true, and definitely apply in the real world. But I think it's interesting to note that the ideal cart with no losses, but fixed pitch and gearing has a theoretical design speed which is some multiple of the wind. One could change the gearing to increase or decrease that theoretical speed, but that gearing would still have to overcome the real world losses.

Yes, I realize that. My comment was to try to help John see what was wrong with his logic.
 
mender
I agree that the treadmill is providing all the energy that is being put into the system, but I'm curious about how you see that energy being dissipated. Obviously some is lost to friction in the various bearings and mechanisms. If the force produced by the propeller is matched by an equal drag on the belt, the cart would experience a net drag and move off the belt unless the treadmill were tilted forward to compensate for that. As the speed of the treadmill is increased, the amount of drag would also increase and the treadmill would need to tilted even more to compensate. Why is this not happening?

If you think of the cart being pulled back with the belt, then you wouldn't so much need to provide a force up the belt, as a force to stop it being dragged back. A small parachute attached to the front, could work to hold it in place.

Because of the gearing, the cart uses the input energy to stop itself, so the propeller is largely drag that opposes the belts tendency to drag the cart back. Because of the way that the forces are opposed, and the cart is positioned against the belt, there is a natural feedback that divides the force, so that it will stay where it is.

You can replace the propeller with a device that produces symmetrical drag, but no thrust. Turn the wheel in either direction, and there will be the opposing reaction of the drag. It is disinclined to move in either direction. Figuratively, I think of it being stuck in a potential well, the depth of which is the level of friction. That is the basic process that maintains the positions, so the reminder is how does it move?

But during that loss of contact, the momentum of the cart would also be lost because of interruption in energy flow to the cart, and drag would slow the cart in relation to the treadmill surface (F=MA). The result of renewed contact would be to average out the loss of momentum experienced by the cart and prop when the tires lose contact, which is directly followed by a spike with the same energy content when the tires regain contact (unless the treadmill surface energy input changed). What you're describing is over-unity in that a force is somehow generated that is greater than the average can account for.

No, I don't think so. Remember the friction is low, the cart light ,and acceleration small. Not a lot of force to overcome. You can see that when removed from the belt, the prop turns for a few seconds. That is more than enough to drive the cart for a brief period.
The process is likely be continuous with perhaps stimulus from vibration, so it need not store a lot. The propeller and shaft masses will integrate the forces. The cancellation process means that the absolute level can increase, and still have the cart remain in place. A disturbance can make available more energy than is immediately required, yet the cart can re-balance later at a lower level. There is no problem with the loss of energy, because the balance state can be achieved over a wide range of force.

It is difficult to be sure, perhaps asymmetrical friction plays a part. Perhaps some direct thrust from the propeller. Perhaps all of the above, dependent upon cart size and belt conditions. The mechanisms are there, but it would take some investigation to determine which are dominant.
[/QUOTE]

Is that what the over-unity description is meaning for this thread? If the treadmill test was modified to actively cause this loss in contact and thereby increase this over-unity force generation, the forward force on the cart should increase and the prop cart should accelerate quickly up the treadmill surface even if the treadmill was tilted to simulate an uphill road. Would the energy needed to essentially oscillate the treadmill surface have to be figured into the energy balance?
If this over-unity force is required to keep the cart in place on the treadmill, Humber, then I agree that a different explanation is in order.

Not over-unity, Mender. That has been mentioned in connection with the amount of energy required to achieve windspeed with respect to the drag and available energy. For me, the balancing act is not as significant as what the treadmill is said to demonstrate. A cart at windspeed, with the reverse velocity of the belt representing the wind. The treadmill/cart combination displays this odd behaviour, because the propeller does not have wind driving it.
 
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Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the above is incorrect.

The propeller of the cart definitely slows the speed of the air relative to the ground -- that's where it gets it's energy from.

You're right, of course: I'm oversimplifying. Maybe I should put it like this: the cart does indeed slow down the motion of the air relative to the ground, but by increasing the efficiency of the cart, we can ensure that this slowing down is hardly noticeable.

In more detail: if there was no friction from the wheels and no drag from the air, the cart would run at a constant speed without any energy input (Newton's first law). By keeping the friction and drag losses to a minimum (make the cart very light, use very efficient bearings, make sure that all parts apart from the propeller offer as little resistance to the wind as possible), we can ensure that it only needs a small energy input to keep a constant velocity. We also give it a nice big propeller so that a large mass of air is passing across it. The larger the mass of moving air from which the energy is being extracted, the less it will be slowed down in the process.
 
Michael, I'd say you have about as firm a grasp on this thing as anyone. I just want to pick one small nit...

In a perfect world (no losses) this would in fact be true (but of course in that case no energy would be needed or used). In the real world the cart does propel air aft - relative to itself. Relative to the ground it simply slows the wind in its "wake".

Yes, you're right. It can be hard to compare the perfect, no-loss cart with the real one. Would you say that my reply (above) to JB is a more accurate description of what really happens?
 
Thanks Michael. I was pretty sure we were on the same page once we got through with the definitions.

JB


You're right, of course: I'm oversimplifying. Maybe I should put it like this: the cart does indeed slow down the motion of the air relative to the ground, but by increasing the efficiency of the cart, we can ensure that this slowing down is hardly noticeable.

In more detail: if there was no friction from the wheels and no drag from the air, the cart would run at a constant speed without any energy input (Newton's first law). By keeping the friction and drag losses to a minimum (make the cart very light, use very efficient bearings, make sure that all parts apart from the propeller offer as little resistance to the wind as possible), we can ensure that it only needs a small energy input to keep a constant velocity. We also give it a nice big propeller so that a large mass of air is passing across it. The larger the mass of moving air from which the energy is being extracted, the less it will be slowed down in the process.
 
You can replace the propeller with a device that produces symmetrical drag, but no thrust. Turn the wheel in either direction, and there will be the opposing reaction of the drag. It is disinclined to move in either direction. Figuratively, I think of it being stuck in a potential well, the depth of which is the level of friction. That is the basic process that maintains the positions, so the reminder is how does it move?

For me, the balancing act is not as significant as what the treadmill is said to demonstrate. A cart at windspeed, with the reverse velocity of the belt representing the wind. The treadmill/cart combination displays this odd behaviour, because the propeller does not have wind driving it.

So if the propeller is essentially a non-entity, removal shouldn't affect the behavior of the cart on the running treadmill, even with a discernable tilt of the treadmill. Has this been tried? How is this different from tilting the treadmill when its not running? If the forces balance regardless of the speed which I think is what you're saying (otherwise the cart would try to move forward or backward when the treadmill is running at different speeds), wouldn't the cart act the same when the treadmill is off?

If that doesn't keep the cart on the treadmill, how would you build something with symmetrical drag? Are you talking about a solid disc?

In the article about the prop cart (I can't link it yet) that is shown running down the road, force measurements are listed that were taken during a treadmill test that indicate asymmetrical thrust from the propeller. Apparently the cart is against a backstop at speeds under 4 mph and starts to leave the backstop when the treadmill speed reaches 4 mph. A tether was hooked to a scale and the forward force measured as the treadmill speed was increased by one mph increments to 10 mph. He shows the drag at 4 mph as being 92 grams and the thrust from the propeller as 92 grams (balanced). At 10 mph the forward thrust exceeded the drag by 150 grams (552 grams thrust, 402 grams drag).

Is this enough to pull the cart out of the "potential" well? The cart which apparently weighs about 2300 grams only takes 13 grams of force to make it roll and gains speed down a 1 inch in ten foot incline. The force imbalance measured at 10 mph works out to be around ten times as much force needed to get the cart moving/accelerating.
 
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So if the propeller is essentially a non-entity, removal shouldn't affect the behavior of the cart on the running treadmill, even with a discernable tilt of the treadmill. Has this been tried? How is this different from tilting the treadmill when its not running? If the forces balance regardless of the speed which I think is what you're saying (otherwise the cart would try to move forward or backward when the treadmill is running at different speeds), wouldn't the cart act the same when the treadmill is off?

If that does keep the cart on the treadmill, how would you build something with symmetrical drag? Are you talking about a solid disc?

In the article about the prop cart (I can't link it yet) that is shown running down the road, force measurements are listed that were taken during a treadmill test that indicate asymmetrical thrust from the propeller. Apparently the cart is against a backstop at speeds under 4 mph and starts to leave the backstop when the treadmill speed reaches 4 mph. A tether was hooked to a scale and the forward force measured as the treadmill speed was increased by one mph increments to 10 mph. He shows the drag at 4 mph as being 92 grams and the thrust from the propeller as 92 grams (balanced). At 10 mph the forward thrust exceeded the drag by 150 grams (552 grams thrust, 402 grams drag).

Is this enough to pull the cart out of the "potential" well? The cart which apparently weighs about 2300 grams only takes 13 grams of force to make it roll and gains speed down a 1 inch in ten foot incline. The force imbalance measured at 10 mph works out to be around ten times as much force needed to get the cart moving/accelerating.

I haven't seen that data, but I don't know that I can take the readings as read. Absolute readings are not as important as the balance, or the amount of momentum stored. Static readings of that kind, would not show the amount stored.
Also, tethering the cart would allow for a higher level of friction than the rolling resistance. If the level of friction is too large, then I expect it would be pulled back.

As I said, different carts may exploit different methods. The bigger carts will perhaps have more thrust.
I do not think the treadmill is a valid model of the conditions at windspeed, that is the reason for describing its operation. What is of interest to me is how that reflects upon the validity of that model. Climbing is not important, but it seems to demand explanation.

The symmetrical drag was to illustrate the idea, as are other possible implementations. The propeller is of course essential to this example.

I don't see why there is a problem once it is accepted that the the cart balances itself. The propeller could produce various ratios of drag and thrust, and have the total effective force met by the same from the belt.
If you don't think that is possible, then I can't support the idea further, but then again, I can't see how it can do anything else.

If the cart is motionless on the belt, then no work is being done on the cart, so all the energy from the belt is dissipated, but some is stored as momentum. The energy comes up from the belt, to be dissipated in the process of keeping the cart stationary. There is no real load for the propeller, and the friction variable, so this force is rather ill-defined.

If when balanced, the friction to the belt were to fall, then the cart could run forward on stored energy. If there is no further increase in friction, then the cart could do work against gravity. If at this point the friction were to increase, then the forces would rises again but remain balanced with the cart in place, while recharging the flywheel in the process.
If you make that incremental, then you have a continuous process.

Perhaps it is that simple. The propeller spins up until the force is great enough to break traction, the cart advances a little, and so forth.
The acceleration upwards would depend upon the available energy and the losses incurred, but as expending that energy will not send it backwards, then it could inch its way along.
 
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Let me try to help with this part. The cart reaches a maximum speed, which is determined by friction, the efficiency of the prop, etc. At that maximum speed it is not accelerating, which means that the total force on it is zero. There is a force pushing it up-tread (to the right, let's say), and some forces that total to the same (like friction in the wheel bearings) pushing it to the left.

Now suppose the cart moves a little slower. Several things happen: first, the prop rotates more slowly (which decreases the net force to the right as you said, all else being equal at least). But second, the apparent headwind decreases, changing the efficiency of the prop at a given rotational speed (and I think increasing it, although I'll have to think harder to be sure). Third, friction in the wheel bearings decreases (which increases the net force to the right).

So the net change could be in either direction - one needs to do a more careful analysis and add up all those effects. Video evidence confirms that the maximum speed is stable (i.e. the forces always accelerate the cart "towards" that max speed).

Does that help?
Sol, thanks, yes it does help. One thing I noticed after I asked the question was that I was trying to describe a process concerning the cart on the treadmill moving away from equilibrium, but used the term 'slowing down', to describe the change, as though I were describing the speed wrt the track. You seem to have echoed this, and it does seem natural. I'm just getting used to the idea that nothing is a correct POV, and all these speeds are relative.

I think I might have underestimated those other two factors, the reduction in efficiency of the prop, caused by the reduction of 'apparent headwind', and the reduction of friction in the machine (at the wheels, but presumably elsewhere too, if all is turning more slowly).

The last bit surprises me. I had imagined that friction remained the same in such things at all speeds, but maybe I'm thinking of a coefficient of friction or something - the 'roughness' rather than the force. So there's another thing I've learned. It's obvious if I think about trying to start a fire with two sticks - fast equals more friction, more energy being dissipated, and ignition. The more important bit, to me, seems to be this reduction in apparent headwind. What is really hard to understand is how, as I imagine the cart 'slowing' (or accelerating wrt the room), I see it moving back down the treadmill so slowly that it is hard to believe that this tiny reduction in 'headwind' is significant enough (and changes in friction, too, maybe) to account for a righting of the equilibrium. It's that that boggles my mind.

I think what's going on is that I imagine moving the cart at that speed, held in my hand, something in the order of a cm a second, say, and I know from experience how doing that won't even turn a prop with usual levels of friction. So the magic ingredient seems to be that this is not analogous, that there is this prop spinning already quite fast, and moving it very slowly backwards makes a big difference to the balance of forces. Maybe.

Anyway, thanks for that.

John, I'll just address two of your points that seem, to me, to put the problem in a nutshell:

No, it indeed goes faster that the "wind" around it: an imp sitting on the cart will feel a headwind. Look again at my little cotton reel: it is really going faster than the piece of paper that is pushing it. Once you have understood that the reason for this is that the piece of paper is always pushing at a specific part of the reel that is going slower than the centre of gravity of the reel, you can transfer this idea to the cart. I know it seems weird to say that a specific part of the cart is always going slower than the the centre of gravity of the cart, but this is what the propeller is effectively doing with respect to the air.
Yes, that makes sense. I think I have mixed up two things, the slowing down of the wind as the prop extracts energy, and the differential you describe here due to the gearing. So although the wind is slowed by the prop, that may only be very slight in comparison. An imp on a mast would have a slightly stronger headwind than one suspended behind the prop?

Think for a while on how a propeller works. I like this explanation: "A propeller moves through the air in a similar manner as a mechanical screw moves forward through a piece of wood". Imagine the propeller burrowing through the air: how far does it move in one complete rotation? If you think of the propeller as a screw, you'll see that it moves the equivalent of the width of the thread of the screw. This is the "pitch" of the propeller.

The gearing of Spork's cart is deigned so that the effective speed of the propeller through the air, defined by its pitch and its speed of rotation, is slower than the speed of the wheel on the ground, defined by the diameter of the wheel and its speed of rotation. This is a fixed ratio, like the fixed ratio of the speed of the point on the cotton reel to the speed of the centre of the reel.
I was just thinking I would never get it, and then you wrote that. I started to realise that what my little brain likes is mechanical stuff like this in terms of actual gears, not sloppy fluids, and I think I've got it, or I'm about to.

Maybe this will help, and others might be able to correct or develop it:

Screw2.jpg


I'm thinking I could have added a drive train and pusher located in the screw instead of just arrows. If one had a pusher device in the screw thread travelling at V, it would push the whole 'vehicle' forward, force the wheel, which would turn my badly drawn cogs, and rotate the screw (I think in the correct sense), which would mean that the whole would progress forward faster than V. Have I got it? Well, of course the fluid is a lot more complicated, and there is the requirement (for steady state maintained indefinitely) in the above of an indefinitely long screw, but that's kinda what a prop is in a fluid.

I think that all the problems of friction here and drag there and energies and relative velocities just confuse me, and this helps to simplify it. There are such massive losses in the above that actually you probably couldn't push the screw at its thread surface without a further wheel there at least. It would also help to redraw it with a sprocket and chain as the surface, because pushing this, it would just slide forward at V.

Again, we can see in this that there's the same relative stuff going on concerning the 'air being pushed backwards'. The pusher would not be going backwards, but as it pushed the thread, the thread would be forced by the ground-chain connection to rotate past it so as to 'slow' it (relatively), which I can imagine as the backward rotation of the screw thread relative to the machine.

There is also a push on the rest of the machine, represented by the lower of the two bold arrows, which in this case is an impossible complication - we can't have two pushing motions at different speeds, but the fluid air averages out such differences.

Equivalence - analogue of the treadmill: given those amendments of a little wheel in the thread fixed to a tracking arm sliding above the contraption, and an unslippable connection at the ground, if the ground is forced to the left, the machine (at rest) will wind the tracking arm such that it overtakes the ground. Slow the tracking arm down a bit to represent the air resistance at the prop, and the machine can only wind itself forward - now moving at a faster rate wrt the ground.

So a wind-powered vehicle can travel downwind faster than the wind? Well, let's just say I'm almost convinced! If I watch the video again, I'll swear it's breaking some law or other. Well done, spork & JB, although I still don't believe you*.;):boggled::)

*Besides, I don't know what wine goes with hat.
 
Re:above post, no.

It is too simplistic to conclude that no differential wind = windspeed.
It is not logical to conclude, that because there is no differential wind, the cart is at windspeed.


Actually, I'd class the lack of differential wind as the definition of wind speed. If you think that isn't windspeed, then please explain to me what the hell is, because you're not making any any sense here.

The reason that the cart has no 'go' is simple. There is no force at the propeller.
For that to happen, there must a force capable of developing as differential pressure across the propeller. Obviously, in static air, this is not the case.
The small amount of energy that trickles up from the motor to power the drag of the propeller as it makes a local disturbance, is orders of magnitude below what is actually required.


The force comes from the spinning of the propeller, as the blades cut through the air. Are you saying that propeller-driven aircraft can't take off on a windless day?
 
Actually, I'd class the lack of differential wind as the definition of wind speed. If you think that isn't windspeed, then please explain to me what the hell is, because you're not making any any sense here.
Which windspeed? The vector, or real turbulent changing wind? There may be times when the relative velocity of the cart with the wind local to is zero, but the cart is not at windspeed, assuming that were possible.
I know that you define windspeed as no differential velocity, but that is also true of no motion in still air. I think the treadmill better represents that equivalence of velocities.

The force comes from the spinning of the propeller, as the blades cut through the air. Are you saying that propeller-driven aircraft can't take off on a windless day?


The propeller is the only load for the belt. The motor drives the propeller. As it is not doing much work keeping the cart on the belt, the forces expected at windspeed must be very low. There appears to be no force acting upon the cart that could keep it at speed.
There is no relative velocity between the propeller and the air local to it, so there can be no power taken from it. The wind is missing.
Planes are not related to this.
ETA:
Any comments about the geared cart?
 
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Long before Newton, it was commonly believed that force was needed to move an object. This could be easily demonstrated by considering the force required to move a sled. The more force applied, the faster the sled would move. When the force is removed the sled would stop. The inventor of the wheel was probably considered a heretic because a cart on wheels violated the laws of motion.
 
I haven't seen that data, but I don't know that I can take the readings as read. Absolute readings are not as important as the balance, or the amount of momentum stored. Static readings of that kind, would not show the amount stored.

Also, tethering the cart would allow for a higher level of friction than the rolling resistance. If the level of friction is too large, then I expect it would be pulled back.



I still can't post the link to the article that shows the data from the cart/treadmill test. Hopefully soon! The method used for measuring the thrust and drag may satisfy your requirements regarding balance. The cart is tethered from the rear so that might be increasing the level of friction as you say. It doesn't seem to be causing any issues according to the test. Maybe untethered it would have a larger forward force imbalance according to that.

The amount of forward thrust was taken directly from the scale which was attached behind the cart to restrain the cart from moving forward off the treadmill. That showed the force as a balance (or imbalance) as you prefer. The readings were taken at 1 mph intervals between 4 and 10 mph. The next phase of the test was conducted with two changes: the belt was repositioned so that the propeller turned the opposite direction from the wheels, and the scale and tether repositioned to restrain the cart from moving backwards off the treadmill. The reading from the first test was subtracted from the readings from the second test to remove the imbalance, then that result was divided by two to show the total drag of the cart during operation.

By adding the thrust measured at each point to the drag measured and calculated at each point, the difference between the drag that the cart produced was compared against the thrust for each interval.

The reading at 4 mph was zero and the drag part of the test showed 185 grams. Since the drag part showed the sum of the drag in two directions, the drag in one direction with all systems functioning and accounted for was 92 grams. A thrust of 92 grams balances the drag at that point for a lift to drag ratio of 1:1.

At 10 mph, the measured imbalance was 150 grams and the calculated drag was 402 grams, giving a thrust of 552 grams or a L/D ratio of 1.37:1.

I checked a wind energy calculator to see if the energy needed to provide the thrust measured could be captured from a wind moving at 4 mph given the size of the prop on the cart (40" in diameter). After doing the conversions and using Betz' law as a guideline for the max efficiency, the amount of power available to a wind turbine of the same diameter as the prop is 1.63 watts. That translates to 93.37 grams of thrust at 1.78 m/s, quite close to the test figure of 92.5 grams. For 10 mph, the numbers work out to 25 watts or 585 grams thrust at 4.44 m/s, again within experimental error of 552 grams as indicated by the treadmill test.

The small cart in the other video tends to back those numbers up, with the 169 gram cart "climbing" a 4.4 degree incline at 10 mph, indicating an imbalance of 13 grams force in the forward direction. That would give it an acceleration rate of 2.47 ft/sec2 on level ground in a 10 mph wind when the cart is at 10 mph. The large cart would have an acceleration rate of 2.12 ft/sec2 based on a weight of about 2300 grams (five pounds). The break even speed on the little cart is 2.7 mph vs the large cart's 4 mph, so a little better performance could be expected from the small cart.

So it appears that the energy available from the different wind speeds correlate quite well to the treadmill test. I don't see a reason to reject the thrust explanation out of hand because of a perceived lack of available force. It sounds plausible based on the energy balance.
 
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I still can't post the link to the article that shows the data from the cart/treadmill test. Hopefully soon! The method used for measuring the thrust and drag may satisfy your requirements regarding balance.

You could just print the URL without the HTTP and periods.


Can you estimate how much difference there is for the thrust with the blade spinning backwards due to asymmetry? (You could always reverse the prop too and run all the measurements again to find out.)
 
Long before Newton, it was commonly believed that force was needed to move an object. This could be easily demonstrated by considering the force required to move a sled. The more force applied, the faster the sled would move. When the force is removed the sled would stop. The inventor of the wheel was probably considered a heretic because a cart on wheels violated the laws of motion.

But not after Newton.
 

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