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Dover Penn ID trial

Ok, it does not really belong here, but nowhere else either...I am so pissed off at my local paper. Today's editorial cartoon?


dickwright.gif



So...does my paper now openly advocate ignorance?
 
Melendwyr said:
Write in and complain. Mention Dawkins and "The Blind Watchmaker", if you get a chance. It's the perfect setup, after all.
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I've already been looking online to do so. Looks like I actually have to put pen to parchment, though...but thanks for the Dawkins tip--I had gone a completely different direction.
 
These zealots sicken me. This is just ignorance. that link about the discovery institute makes me VERY angry. All the valid arguement goes out the window in the end and the final say is because of their belief. Belief based on assumptions. I do not like religions.

Welcome to the dark ages.
 
ID/Evolution/Big bang

My very first post in the JREF.
With reference to Mercutio's cartoon post (which is apparently nothing to do with this thread, so sorry to further detract).
Whilst I agree with the gross over simplification of this creationist propoganda, what is known with regards to the beginning, if such a time or event occurred?
I get a bit bamboozled thinking about it. It would seem the possibilities are limited to a never beginning or ending continuous reincarnation of universes, an 'always there' theory, a beginning/big bang theory which seems hard to explain the unscientific something from nothing and finally the odd and unlikely nothing exists option of the Christian scientists.
Any thoughts on a scientifically plausible solution?
:boxedin:
 
The one I tend to think is easiest is the "always there" for matter. Of course, the closer you get to t=0, the weirder t gets. As I understand it, the idea of creation ex nihilo having a place in science is a creation ex nihilo by religion.
 
teacher said:
My very first post in the JREF.
With reference to Mercutio's cartoon post (which is apparently nothing to do with this thread, so sorry to further detract).
Whilst I agree with the gross over simplification of this creationist propoganda, what is known with regards to the beginning, if such a time or event occurred?
I get a bit bamboozled thinking about it. It would seem the possibilities are limited to a never beginning or ending continuous reincarnation of universes, an 'always there' theory, a beginning/big bang theory which seems hard to explain the unscientific something from nothing and finally the odd and unlikely nothing exists option of the Christian scientists.
Any thoughts on a scientifically plausible solution?
:boxedin:
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Very Very quick response...the beginnings of the universe are not something that is covered by Natural Selection.

The formation of Stars & origin of heavy elements...is not something that is covered by natural selection.

The Origin of Life is not something that is covered by Natural Selection.

Three uses of "evolved" in the cartoon, and thus far not one of them is how Darwin used the term...

Teacher...each of these areas has scientific hypotheses attempting to explain them. They may be strongly supported, they may not. What they absolutely are not, is relevant whatsoever to Evolution by Natural Selection.

I don't know whether I addressed your question, but I thank you for letting me vent just a little bit more about mine...
 
Many thanks Bronzedog, that would make sense. Hope to join in a lot in future threads on various topics, and you seem to be a regular (2164 posts). Have some particular favourite topics, e.g. healing.
 
Oh hi Mercutio! An even more experienced poster with 8959. To both of you- I am a keen zoologist and I was an evangelical/creationist speaker for many years. I'm now a non evangelical (but still a Christian) evolutionist. I was wondering about how science explains the 'beginning' as an alternative to God. Oh, and I am sceptical about anything supernatural (as well as just paranormal) being able to be proven or demonstrated, though I am obviously a supernaturalist. I personally doubt all paranormal activity exists and my personal interest/expertise is healing, having previously been very involved in it.
 
teacher said:
Oh hi Mercutio! An even more experienced poster with 8959.
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Mostly limericks, I assure you.
To both of you- I am a keen zoologist and I was an evangelical/creationist speaker for many years. I'm now a non evangelical (but still a Christian) evolutionist. I was wondering about how science explains the 'beginning' as an alternative to God.
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"Explains"? I think "I don't know" is the best that we have, although there are some promising possibilities. The possibilities are, IMO, plausible enough that the burden of proof shifts to the proponent of some supernatural force, but that is just my (correct) opinion.
Oh, and I am sceptical about anything supernatural (as well as just paranormal) being able to be proven or demonstrated, though I am obviously a supernaturalist. I personally doubt all paranormal activity exists and my personal interest/expertise is healing, having previously been very involved in it.
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I (and most probably, "we") would love to hear your story!
 
Hi Mercutio. Unfortunately it's 4.25 a.m. here and I need to sleep and so perhaps now is a good time for me pause here. I shall return tomorrow and hope I can find you.
Let me know if:
a.) there is anything you need to know now and
b.) if there is anything I need to know about this site/threads etc. as I'm new, e.g. is there a thread that relates to healing?
Maybe I'll just ask if there are any (other) theists you know of that do not seem to have any qualms with a sceptics site?
 
Just an amusing coincidence for when you get back, teacher: Mercutio and I both have the same birthday. Sadly, last July, my bday thread could not hope to compete with his. *sniff* And no one's complemented the avatar I made from scratch for the occasion.










But I digress.

Another trippy thing I suddenly remembered hearing: Creation ex nihilo might be possible scientifically, after all: When you add it all up, the universe is nothing: All the forces and such cancel each other out. So, even starting with nothing, the universe still obeys conservation. Of course, I don't know if that's really true, or just one of those things some people randomly think up.



All this time and cosmology stuff makes my head hurt.
 
teacher said:
Hi Mercutio. Unfortunately it's 4.25 a.m. here and I need to sleep and so perhaps now is a good time for me pause here. I shall return tomorrow and hope I can find you.
Let me know if:
a.) there is anything you need to know now and
b.) if there is anything I need to know about this site/threads etc. as I'm new, e.g. is there a thread that relates to healing?
Maybe I'll just ask if there are any (other) theists you know of that do not seem to have any qualms with a sceptics site?
Click to expand...

It's 1.44 in the afternoon here (and a slow day), so I'll see if I can help.

a) Also interested in your story - perhaps the Forum Community one or even this one on how you came to be so many things! :)
b) The search function up the top is useful, although the
Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology forum area is good too as a start.
As for other theists, there's quite a nice bunch around here... I'm certain if you started up a) you'll find some reply to you. :) Otherwise I'll prod them with a stick or something, being a teacher myself and all. ;)
 
teacher said:
b.) if there is anything I need to know about this site/threads etc. as I'm new, e.g. is there a thread that relates to healing?
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Hi, welcome.

As far as "healing" goes, that word covers a lot of things. Are we talking crystals? homeopathy? magnetic insoles?

Lots of things are called "healing" by their practitioners.
Maybe I'll just ask if there are any (other) theists you know of that do not seem to have any qualms with a sceptics site?
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There are various theists and deists who post here: for example, I believe that a couple of the heros of the Homeopathy Wars have faith.

"Skeptics" is a loose term. I think that the mood of the forums is much more pro-science than anti-religion: and so as long as people find science to be compatible with religion, they're on my side.
 
BronzeDog said:
Just an amusing coincidence for when you get back, teacher: Mercutio and I both have the same birthday. Sadly, last July, my bday thread could not hope to compete with his. *sniff* And no one's complemented the avatar I made from scratch for the occasion
Click to expand...

I just didn't want my compliment of your lovely avatar to detract attention from my birthday present to you, a large iron coathanger. :) It's currently strung over the Sydney Harbour, let me know when you're coming to collect it! :)
 
Merc, don't forget to mention that the "complete void in space" has nothing to do with how we think our universe happened. So the artist must be talking about a different universe. Perhaps in that universe Swatches do evolve.

Hi, I'm an idiot. I have no idea about any of this stuff, so I think I'll draw a cartoon illustrating my ignorance. Then we can all laugh at ... evolution!

~~ Paul
 
Natural selection does apply to all of those situations. Evolutionary biology, however, is only concerned with natural selection as it applies to living organisms - it makes no statements about the origins of life or the existence of matter.
 
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