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Dover Penn ID trial

Mutation and natural selection are not the same process.

The depth of your understanding defies belief. :rolleyes:


BronzeDog said:
Implications... such as?
That's where the "thinking" comes in ... yours, not mine.

Does Cramer's Transactional Interpretation (or even Sum_over_all_paths) seem random recalling that no time elapses during the event?
 
Hammegk said:
Timing of specific environment & timing of rna-dna available for mutation is not random?
This bit of logic is used by many creationists. Indeed, the timing of specific environmental pressures is random with respect to the rest of the universe. But that doesn't matter, does it? What matters is that that environmental pressures last for a long time, long enough to nonrandomly select the more-or-less random mutations that occur in genomes embedded in that environment.

Or does environment specify and direct mutation? LOL.
It might to some extent, but what does it matter?

~~ Paul
 
Perhaps. Which suitable studies that test your hypothesis do you find most convincing?

For future reference, I recommend:

a) Reading the post you are responding to.
b) Making sure you understand all the words used in that post.
c) Making sure you understand all the words used in the post when you string them together in the same way the author of the post strung them together.
d) Trying to incorporate some thoughts about that post in your response to it.
e) Making sure your response actually makes sense to other native English speakers (as opposed to being a meaningless jumble of incoherent nonsense unrelated to anything anyone is talking about.)

I also note you didn't take issue with my post about Genetic Programming being un-designed despite the fact that humans obviously designed genetic programming. Could it be that you don't understand the subject at hand? Or can you not define "design" sufficiently well? Or both?
 
This thread is meant to be about the ID trial. Hasn't it been split once already to provide a suitable receptacle for hammy's incontinent drivel?

Good point. Hammy is boring. The trial is endlessly entertaining.

So to kick this thread back onto topic, why on Earth did the defense put Buckingham on the witness stand?
 
So to kick this thread back onto topic, why on Earth did the defense put Buckingham on the witness stand?

Because they had to.

Buckingham's statements, as reported in the press, using words like "creationism" and statements about "two thousand years ago, somone died on the cross for us; won't someone take a stand for Him?" (I apologize if that's a misquote; I didn't bother to cross-check.) are direct and clear-cut evidence about the religious motivations of the government officials who made the policy. By extension, it's clear-cut evidence that the government policy itself is motivated by religious, not secular, purposes, violating the first prong of the Lemon test.

Without some way to refute those newspaper reports, the game is as good as over. And the only person who can credibly testify about what Buckingham said is Buckingham himself. (Imagine if the defense tried to refute those statements without Buckingham's testimony. Wouldn't you find that a little suspicious?)

I suppose another strategy might have been for the entire board to try to distance itself from Buckingham -- "Well, he may have had religious motivations, but I agreed with the proposal for sound pedagogical reasons, which I am inexplicably unable to articulate at this moment due to an acute confusion between whether my foot belongs in my shoe, or my mouth." However, I really doubt that dog would hunt either; the judge is demonstrably no fool.

Other than that, I think that all the defense can really hope for is to muddy the waters enough to make a credible case on appeal. I honestly don't see (from my reading of the transcripts) how the trial judge could make any finding other than for the plaintiffs.
 
Other than that, I think that all the defense can really hope for is to muddy the waters enough to make a credible case on appeal. I honestly don't see (from my reading of the transcripts) how the trial judge could make any finding other than for the plaintiffs.

It just seems like nobody did their homework or got their stories straight (in Behe and Buckingham's cases, it seems like they didn't even bother getting their stories traight with themselves!) It couldn't be any more obvious these people are dishonest. I really don't see how they could hope to get an appeal at this point.

What were they thinking? Does it really just simply boil down to their being blinded by faith?
 
RNA available for mutation? Go find a biology textbook. You need to do some reading.
Pedants are so interesting ... I tossed in rna to cover all terran life as it's usually defined by y'all.

For future reference, I recommend:

a) Reading the post you are responding to.
b) Making sure you understand all the words used in that post.
c) Making sure you understand all the words used in the post when you string them together in the same way the author of the post strung them together.
d) Trying to incorporate some thoughts about that post in your response to it.
e) Making sure your response actually makes sense to other native English speakers (as opposed to being a meaningless jumble of incoherent nonsense unrelated to anything anyone is talking about.)
I asked what peer-reviewed studies you based your "all Christians" thought on. Was I too quick for you?

note you didn't take issue with my post about Genetic Programming being un-designed despite the fact that humans obviously designed genetic programming. Could it be that you don't understand the subject at hand? Or can you not define "design" sufficiently well? Or both?
So much to repond to, so few of me. Sorry to keep you waiting.

I do like that "designed un-designed design" concept.;)

Paul C A said:
It might to some extent, but what does it matter?
IIRC there are some studies that imply microbes mutating at faster rate when stressed (er, and at pre-selected specific locales as well), yet the idea seems a bit too Lamarchian for The Theory.



And to all now dancing in the streets in glee, Scopes won the day and held it for The Theory many decades. Assuming ID losses this trial, how long this time until the next assault as Religion(vs. Science) tries again. :)
 
I asked what peer-reviewed studies you based your "all Christians" thought on. Was I too quick for you?

Yes. You were too quick to lie and try to stuff words in my mouth. Like I said, read the original post before you respond. I never said "all Christians," but you still quote me as saying exactly that.

Buckingham and Behe are most certainly self described Christians and are most certainly liars. How do they justify this to themselves? Why is there not an uproar from the Christian community about these people who purport to represent the religion in public?
 
Hammegk said:
IIRC there are some studies that imply microbes mutating at faster rate when stressed (er, and at pre-selected specific locales as well), yet the idea seems a bit too Lamarchian for The Theory.
If mutation and selection can conjure up something diabolical, it will. I won't even be surprised if things slightly Lamarckian are discovered. All you need is some mechanism to modify sex cells in a "controlled" manner. I believe there is already evidence that structures in sex cells other than DNA carry information inherited by offspring.

~~ Paul
 
...So to kick this thread back onto topic, why on Earth did the defense put Buckingham on the witness stand?
It's my understanding that Buckingham was called by the prosecution (hostile witness rules and all) out of turn becuase he was unavailable when they presented their case and allowances were made for just this sort of thing.

I think the defense would have been happier to have him spend the trial buried under a rock on some remote planet. I think everyone ought to get together and sign thank-you cards to the defense counsel and witnesses for shredding every vestige of credibility that ID claimed to have. Maybe we can give them some Darwin fish for their cars too.
 
I find out-of-the-box thinking more interesting than regurgitation of liturgy.
Though I tend to agree with this basic message, out-of-the-box thinking should stop where unsupported and unfalsifiable speculation starts, especially where the latter is combined with lots of grossly inappropriate finger pointing.
 
It's my understanding that Buckingham was called by the prosecution (hostile witness rules and all) out of turn becuase he was unavailable when they presented their case and allowances were made for just this sort of thing.

According to the rather-garbled transcripts available from the NCSE, he was called as a defense witness.

Not that that means much.
 
Hey guys. There's a really funny article at Slate by William Saletan comparing Dr. Behe's testimony to a Monty Python sketch.

Last paragraph:

So, this is my theory, which belongs to me, and goes as follows. All intelligently designed things are brought about by an intelligent designer through a process of intelligently conducted design. If it's good enough for Monty Python, it's good enough for biology class.
 
Phooey. You are the author who neglected to use any qualifier. Got peer-review to support even "most" or "many" Christians? That is, actually back up your statement.
Where did delphi_ote use terms like "most" or "many"? He noted that Behe and Buckingham are self-professed Christians, that Christian scripture contains several prohibitions on telling falsehoods, and noted the apparent discrepancy between Behe and Buckingham's self-professed adherence to Christianity and their failure to avoid activity prohibited by scripture. The evidence to back up that statement is there for all of us to see, in the trial transcripts for starters.

Stop trying to be clever, hammy; you haven't got what it takes to pull that off.

I might add that your instruction to Chipmunk Stew to "either add something, or stfu" is the height of chutzpah coming from someone the majority of whose posts add exactly zero value to the conversation, consisting of messages to the effect that "you're wrong, but I'm not going to argue why; instead, you have to come up with the arguments I can't produce myself."
 
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Hammy, can you prove to us that Creationism and Intelligent design qualify as science, and belong in the science curriculum for high school students?
 
"I find out-of-the-box thinking more interesting than regurgitation of liturgy."

How does that work when the "out of the box" thinking is designed specificallly to get you back to dogmatic regurgitation of liturgy...for the expressed motives of the ID movment isn't scientific, it is to bannish
"materialist" science and to return to education founded in religious dogma...and than they can, once again, turn on each other like they've done for thousands of years.
 

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