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Dover Penn ID trial

That definition is from the context of biology! The field excludes everything non-living.

That's the only field (to my knowledge) that has defined the term. That's what the word means.

Gravity brings two things together. Addition brings two things together. Gravity is addition. QED.

You can't just apply a technical word anywhere you want because you've found a loose analogy between two concepts.
 
For example, I don't think any scientist believes that mutations arising at random at some sort of background frequency are sufficient to explain the rise of life on Earth at its current level of diversity. Such mutations occur, of course, but the true picture is much more complicated than that. There appear to be significant interactions among genes, including catalytic reactions at the biochemical level, and these greatly increase the probability of certain types of change. This does not require intelligent design, any more than the assembly of the highly ordered structure of a crystal.

Modern evolution, both fact and theory, is not "Darwinism", because, of course, Darwin knew nothing about genes. It is the cumulative result of tens of thousands of pieces of research carried out since Darwin's time, and represents the current state of a continuously developing body of theory and observation. Those who wish to refute it have a vast amount of material to rebut.

Further, as far as history is concerned, the reference to Lamarck was surely not intended to suggest that he was "suppressed" by Darwin or anyone else. Evolution as an idea had been around for many years before either Darwin or Lamarck came up with it; even Darwin's grandfather published his own version of it. Lamarck and Darwin, unlike earlier writers, came up with mechanisms for how evolution could work. Lamarck's ideas, however, simply did not match the evidence and were rapidly disproved. Darwin's, on the other hand, were supported by a vast amount of evidence, much of it assembled by Darwin himself (though Darwin's own work represents but a minute fraction of the amount of evidence in support of evolution by natural selection available today). If anyone was "shoveled under" by Darwin's fame, it was Alfred Russell Wallace, who came up with practically the same basic theory as Darwin almost simultaneously with him, but failed to support it with the detailed evidence that the extremely meticulous Darwin had assembled before publishing (hardly a criticism of Wallace, who was ill with fever in the East Indies at the time!).

For an excellent and very readable short history of the development of evolutionary theory, may I recommend "Evolution: The Remarkable History of a Scientific Theory" by Edward J. Larson (Modern Library 2004). For a very clear explanation of the state of things today, with lots of pictures (!), read "Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea" by Carl Zimmer (HarperCollins 2001).

And, of course, there is nothing to prevent anyone from believing that there is an intelligence behind anything in our universe, but establishing this belief as a scientific theory (as opposed to a philosophical or religious conviction) will require something better than simply stating that you cannot imagine how it could be otherwise. The universe is not limited by the scope of human imagination.
Ronald Orenstein
 
You can't just apply a technical word anywhere you want because you've found a loose analogy between two concepts.
What about a strong analogy? What about cases where concepts are exactly alike except for some very minor differences?
 
What about a strong analogy? What about cases where concepts are exactly alike except for some very minor differences?
Life vs. not-life is a very minor difference? I think you'd have trouble showing anyone (not just those of us on JREF) that pebbles exhibit "natural selection" in any technical sense. This about sums up your argument for me: :dig:
 
Evolution is just a term to coin an advanced subdivision of the natural 'order or randomness' (interchangeable here, or order caused by randomness) caused or determined by natural laws. With enough comprehensive or God-like knowledge of every intricate detail, all could in theory be predicted. Free-will could be another term within this field if you accept that this has ultimnately developed (or evolved) from atoms.

Is there any great reason that evolution cannot be applied to inorganic things, given that we apply the term to man made objects, eras etc. and life came/evolved from inorganic things? We even hear, 'the universe evolved..." So maybe it's not strictly true (o is it?) but we could really talk about evolution from the big bang couldn't we?

And I'm a theist!
 
What about a strong analogy? What about cases where concepts are exactly alike except for some very minor differences?

Then you'd have something like Mercutio's example. His analogy was strong because it incorporated all aspects of the definition including reproduction. You'd have to come up with some way of explaining how your stars and pebbles reproduce and pass on characteristics of themselves to their offspring. It is critical to the concept at hand. Otherwise, "natural selection" just means "change over time."
 
Teacher said:
Is there any great reason that evolution cannot be applied to inorganic things, given that we apply the term to man made objects, eras etc. and life came/evolved from inorganic things? We even hear, 'the universe evolved..." So maybe it's not strictly true (o is it?) but we could really talk about evolution from the big bang couldn't we?
The reason not to call these other things "evolution," without any qualifiers, is because it is misleading. The Creationists are already misleading people; there is every reason to try not to follow suit.

Also, as Delphi noted, just because two disciplines use the term foo does not imply that they mean the same thing by the term. All the more reason to be careful.

~~ Paul
 
The reason not to call these other things "evolution," without any qualifiers, is because it is misleading.
In what way?

1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.
2.
1. The process of developing.
2. Gradual development.
3. Biology.
1. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
2. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
4. A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements.

In any case, I thought we were discussing 'natural selection', not 'evolution'.
 
Because people are confused about evolution, and Creationists keep calling it a purely random process, and the terms means different things in different disciplines. At least try not to add to the confusion.

I don't know where you got those definitions, but the first one is an example of one that is misleading.

~~ Paul
 
I don't know where you got those definitions, but the first one is an example of one that is misleading.
:eye-poppi It's the primary meaning of the word. It would be somewhat misleading if we used that word in the context of a changing trait distribution, yes, but that's not the case.
 
:eye-poppi It's the primary meaning of the word. It would be somewhat misleading if we used that word in the context of a changing trait distribution, yes, but that's not the case.
If you got it from a common-use dictionary, then the primary meaning has little to do with the technical meaning. Common-use dictionaries (the type found on most homes' bookshelves) are written to reflect colloquial usage, and they list the most commonly-used definitions first. They're not written to dictate the way words should be defined, or to narrowly define them to the way they're used in technical fields. Thus, when you're talking about "evolution" in the technical, biological sense, "more complex or better form" is a misleading characterization of the word.

eta: The point being, if we start broadening the definition of "natural selection" outside of the biological sciences, and it creeps into colloquial usage loosely defined, the same frustrating semantic arguments about its technical usage in biology that we have with the word "evolution" will occur with the term "natural selection" and will interfere with clear and true information exchange about the biological sciences in the general public.
 
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What does "more complex or better form" have to do with biological evolution?
Absolutely nothing. The everyday meaning is not compatible with the narrow meaning used within biology. That definition is not 'misleading', however - the definition cannot be 'misleading' if it's properly written, which it is.

I've yet to see any of you offer even the slightest bit of reasoning to support your assertion that 'natural selection' is meaningful only if it's applied to biological organisms.
 
Absolutely nothing. The everyday meaning is not compatible with the narrow meaning used within biology. That definition is not 'misleading', however - the definition cannot be 'misleading' if it's properly written, which it is.

I've yet to see any of you offer even the slightest bit of reasoning to support your assertion that 'natural selection' is meaningful only if it's applied to biological organisms.

Evolution: A term with a common meaning in the language that seemed close enough to a concept Darwin was trying to describe. It was co-opted and made into a technical term.

Natural selection: Two words with their own meaning. Together, they also seemed relevant to describe a concept Darwin was inventing. He put them together for the first time in a way that was popularly adopted. The words did not have a previous meaning together. They only have that meaning in the context of biology when put together like that.

The situation with these two terms is not the same. Because evolution has a "common" and "technical" definition does not imply "natural selection" does as well.
 
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The words did not have a previous meaning together.
Not true, unfortunately. I believe you're trying to express the idea that the two words were not formally considered to represent a single concept before it was accepted.

They only have that meaning in the context of biology when put together like that.
And outside the context of biology? That's what I've been discussing for (how many days has it been, again?) quite a long time. You keep bringing up the usage within biology - the field that only deals with living things.
 
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And outside the context of biology? That's what I've been discussing for (how many days has it been, again?) quite a long time. You keep bringing up the usage within biology - the field that only deals with living things.
Last I looked, every definition (including the one you posted) specified reproduction with heritability. If I recall, every definition brought here did happen to be biological. I did ask for uses of "natural selection" in the literature of other sciences, but unless I missed a post, there have been none posted here (aside from Paul's, which was clearly a metaphorical use of the biological term).

We keep discussing the usage within biology because that is where it is used.
 
I did ask for uses of "natural selection" in the literature of other sciences, but unless I missed a post, there have been none posted here (aside from Paul's, which was clearly a metaphorical use of the biological term).
I think "natural selection" should be regarded as a metaphor even in biology.
 
Last I looked, every definition (including the one you posted) specified reproduction with heritability.
"Gravity is the force which pulls living things towards the center of the Earth."

Does that specify action upon living things, or not? Is the sentence false?

We keep discussing the usage within biology because that is where it is used.
It can be used elsewhere. What else can you call it when nature causes some traits to be more persistant than others?
 

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