Double The Minimum Wage

[maxpower1227]

Yeah, I guess you're right. Raising the minimum wage at all would be disastrous for business and employment. We should actually lower it some more so businesses will hire more workers.

Right?

 

[Drs_Res]

Raise it to much, yes, it could, especially for a mom and pop store.

But it's not just wages, it's also the taxes that the employer has to pay on behalf of the employee.

And that does not take into account employees that may have been somewhere for a while and have gotten raises for good work performance. if the increase of the minimum wage pushes the minimum wage past what they are currently making, they are going to expect their pay to increase the same amount as the minimum and keep those pay increases on top of that.

 

[theprestige]

Yeah, I guess you're right. Raising the minimum wage at all would be disastrous for business and employment. We should actually lower it some more so businesses will hire more workers.

Right?

It depends: Is your preferred policy based on whatever feel-good conclusion at which you've already uncritically arrived?

Or is it based on carefully considering the implications and side effects of different options, and making an informed decision about which trade-offs to make?

 

[Wildy]

How about a different approach. I happen to have heard this while driving today.

1. Abolish minimum wage, let the free market set the wage.

2. Establish minimum Income. If you are employed and still fall below minimum income then the governments supplements until you reach minimum income.

Why should a business bother to pay their employees who are currently on the minimum wage anything at all under this system since the government will pay it for you?

 

[theprestige]

Why should a business bother to pay their employees who are currently on the minimum wage anything at all under this system since the government will pay it for you?

Yeah, it seems like a really bad idea.

"You're providing an estimated value of about $16/hour, but since the government is already paying you $11/hour, we're going to offer you $5/hour Above Minimum Income, and pocket the rest as profit."

Businesses would start offering AMI wages, and as an employee, you'd know they were getting some percentage of your actual value as a government subsidy.

To offset this, the government would have to tax businesses for the full Minimum Income value of each employee, and then turn around and send a check for that amount to each employee. Because somehow people can't figure out how to live without having their government be the middleman on Every. Single. Thing. They Do.

 

[maxpower1227]

It depends: Is your preferred policy based on whatever feel-good conclusion at which you've already uncritically arrived?

Or is it based on carefully considering the implications and side effects of different options, and making an informed decision about which trade-offs to make?

My preferred policy is based on the beliefs that the minimum wage should keep pace with rises in worker productivity, that a person working full time should make enough money to pay for rent and other basic essentials without having to rely on public assistance, and that it is wholly unjust for a CEO to make 300 times what a low level worker does if said low level workers need to work two jobs to make ends meet. Admittedly, this is a completely uninformed decision which I arrived at wholly uncritically. Once I have completed my degree in Kleptocratic Studies from the University of Ayn Rand I'm sure I will see things differently.

 

[Pulvinar]

...and that it is wholly unjust for a CEO to make 300 times what a low level worker does if said low level workers need to work two jobs to make ends meet.

Something I've always wondered: would it be unjust for the company to pay a particular assembly-line worker 10 million a year if that worker had developed a unique talent that was making the company an additional 11 million a year, and they didn't want to lose the worker to the competition offering 9 million?

 

[maxpower1227]

Something I've always wondered: would it be unjust for the company to pay a particular assembly-line worker 10 million a year if that worker had developed a unique talent that was making the company an additional 11 million a year, and they didn't want to lose the worker to the competition offering 9 million?

Irrelevant. The company would claim ownership of the method as it was developed using their equipment. The worker might get a modest raise, but nowhere near that fantastical amount.

 

[theprestige]

Irrelevant. The company would claim ownership of the method as it was developed using their equipment. The worker might get a modest raise, but nowhere near that fantastical amount.

You may have misunderstood the scenario. I think Pulvinar is talking about a unique talent, not a teachable method.

If the company loses the employee, they lose the talent.

 

[maxpower1227]

You may have misunderstood the scenario. I think Pulvinar is talking about a unique talent, not a teachable method.

If the company loses the employee, they lose the talent.

What talent could a person develop that was not in any way teachable or otherwise reproducible? I can't think of anything, but if such a talent existed, that person would probably soon find themselves heading their own company.

 

[Pulvinar]

You may have misunderstood the scenario. I think Pulvinar is talking about a unique talent, not a teachable method.

If the company loses the employee, they lose the talent.

Right-- say an inspector with an unexplainable knack for locating faulty units before they get launched into space, or a small-part assembler who has learned a set of fine motor skills over many years, such as a concert pianist would have.

 

[theprestige]

... that a person working full time should make enough money to pay for rent and other basic essentials without having to rely on public assistance...

What if the market value of a week's worth of rent and other basic essentials is higher than the market value of 40 hours of that person's labor?

You know what you need? You need a house sitter. Let's make a deal:

I'll sit in front of your house all day while you're at work. 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. 40 hours, full time job. I'll sign for deliveries, keep kids off your lawn, and pick up any poop left by your neighbor's dogs. Every 20 minutes, I'll walk around the house, make sure nobody is breaking in through the back window. If they are, I'll call the police.

Minimum wage in California is $8.00/hour. At the end of this week, you'll owe me $320. Monthly you'll owe me about $1,280. I could probably get by on that, if I had to. What do you say? Are my house-sitting services worth $1,280 a month to you?

 

[maxpower1227]

What if the market value of a week's worth of rent and other basic essentials is higher than the market value of 40 hours of that person's labor?

You know what you need? You need a house sitter. Let's make a deal:

I'll sit in front of your house all day while you're at work. 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. 40 hours, full time job. I'll sign for deliveries, keep kids off your lawn, and pick up any poop left by your neighbor's dogs. Every 20 minutes, I'll walk around the house, make sure nobody is breaking in through the back window. If they are, I'll call the police.

Minimum wage in California is $8.00/hour. At the end of this week, you'll owe me $320. Monthly you'll owe me about $1,280. I could probably get by on that, if I had to. What do you say? Are my house-sitting services worth $1,280 a month to you?

Are you helping me fill a demand for goods and services from which I am able to reap enormous profits? Is a private citizen paying someone for a personal favor really analogous to an employer who is running a business? No? Then maybe you should come up with a realistic comparison and stop trying to justify corporations keeping their employees in poverty.

 

[NewtonTrino]

What talent could a person develop that was not in any way teachable or otherwise reproducible? I can't think of anything, but if such a talent existed, that person would probably soon find themselves heading their own company.

So anyone can be Michael Jordan? Are you really this unclear on talent?

Anyone can just pick up a guitar and become Jimmy Page eh? You need to teach me that trick.

 

[Brainster]

My preferred policy is based on the beliefs that the minimum wage should keep pace with rises in worker productivity, that a person working full time should make enough money to pay for rent and other basic essentials without having to rely on public assistance, and that it is wholly unjust for a CEO to make 300 times what a low level worker does if said low level workers need to work two jobs to make ends meet. Admittedly, this is a completely uninformed decision which I arrived at wholly uncritically. Once I have completed my degree in Kleptocratic Studies from the University of Ayn Rand I'm sure I will see things differently.

How ironic it is that you don't see that the real kleptocrats are the ones in government taking people from one class of people and transferring it to others via minimum wage laws.

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

In MN the minimum wage is due to go up to I think 9.50 an hour. Since I make minimum that will be swell. I don't know when though. It might be 2014 or 2015. I really can't think of anything the democrats can do more to get votes than to raise the minimum wage. Like President Obama said, wage increases can't be taken away unlike govt. subsidies. This is really a fact more than an argument. The only argument is how much. You are missing one side of the argument at any rate, the govt. likes raising the minimum wage because then they can tax more. Its like free money. I presume someone making 9.50 an hour plus benefits full time is unlikely to qualify for a lot of govt. benefits unless they have kids. I think the cut of is kind of low.

 

[maxpower1227]

So anyone can be Michael Jordan? Are you really this unclear on talent?

Anyone can just pick up a guitar and become Jimmy Page eh? You need to teach me that trick.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about everyday blue-collar workers. I don't know what gave me that idea:

would it be unjust for the company to pay a particular assembly-line worker

 

[maxpower1227]

How ironic it is that you don't see that the real kleptocrats are the ones in government taking people from one class of people and transferring it to others via minimum wage laws.

You never answered my earlier question. By how much should we lower the minimum wage?

 

[Pulvinar]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about everyday blue-collar workers. I don't know what gave me that idea:

I'm talking about one extraordinary blue-collar worker, one whose talent is worth millions to the company (or their competitors). Say they have no desire to start their own company. Is it just that they should make so much more than their less-talented coworkers? I'm trying to understand what counts as justice here.

 

[balrog666]

You never answered my earlier question. By how much should we lower the minimum wage?

To zero as it is completely irrelevant.

Once again you forget that entry-level wages for unskilled, unproven, and generally talentless workers competes with what the welfare state will pay them to stay home and make Democrat voters full-time.