"Don't ask/Don't tell" is very stupid

[The Fallen Serpent]

that makes absolutely no sense to me. if anything, I would think that a "normal" homosexual, who seemed like everyone else, and had no stereotypical gay mannerisms, except for the knowledge that he was gay and not straight, would make it much more easier to accept him.

at least it would for me. how can you fear someone for being different...if they don't seem different at all?

There is still the difference, but the difference is harder to pinpoint and compartmentalize. "Stealth" homosexuality is perceived as the most insidious form because it "falsely" paints homosexuality as normal healthy and nothing to fear... therefore enticing properly "straight" people to the life of sin. Also, those "stealth" homosexuals can do something underhanded like turn otherwise innocent situations into gay fun, like use the bathroom at the same as someone straight, stare surreptiously during shower time, catch a straight person off guard and successfully rape... Seriously these are all arguements I have heard.

A face to face accussation I witnessed of one person discovering another was gay was just that, that the homosexual man was "lying" about his homosexuality so at to rape straight men. The reason this homophobe stated as to not being afraid of someone else who was flaming was because that person was obvious and couldn't catch a straight man off guard. It was "honest" homosexuality and not a threat. This "stealth" homosexual had never even lied, it just never came up until one day he came to work all bubbly and happy and when asked why he mentioned having a new boyfriend after a few years of avoiding the dating scene.

Then again, maybe I have experienced a weird sampling of society. Of my homosexual friends, the men usually think drag queens are unattractive and the women think they are cute. Though the reasoning made sense to me. As one friend put it, "Why would I want a guy who tries to be a woman? I'm gay, that implies I like men. The manlier the better."

 

[Thunder]

A face to face accussation I witnessed of one person discovering another was gay was just that, that the homosexual man was "lying" about his homosexuality so as to rape straight men.

well, this person has got some severe problems.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

apples and oranges, my friend. you cannot compare homophobia and ethnic prejudice. they are two very different things.

one is simple fear and hatred of "the other".

the other is fear, anxiety, and anger at a form of sexuality that makes one deeply uncomfortable...and even makes one question their own sexuality.

Umm... why? Why can't the other be simple fear and hatred of "the other" too?

You seem to have no trouble with other obsessions, even extreme obsessions, having other causes. But somehow for homophobic obsessions, it has to be some completely other mechanism and explanation. Why?

It seems to me like as much special pleading as, basically, "everything must have a creator, except god". It's a view in which X has to work in way Y, while everything else works in way Z.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

well, this person has got some severe problems.

I would agree there!

A more humorous example....

http://www.hulu.com/watch/26848/american-dad-checking-for-gay#x-4,vclip,16,0

 

[Thunder]

You seem to have no trouble with other obsessions, even extreme obsessions, having other causes. But somehow for homophobic obsessions, it has to be some completely other mechanism and explanation. Why?

because racism and bigotry against Jews, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, is about culture and religion and skin color....

and homophobia is about sexuality.

two very different subject matter.

 

[332nd]

New York City. First in Queens and then in Manhattan (we moved to Soho/Greenwich Village when I was 10 years old).

My parents are from Poland, though, so being Polish-American, I grew up in a culture where homosexuality was a very touchy subject.

So, as you can imagine, I knew lots of people who had an issue with gays but were totally straight themselves.

Thank you.

I have to say I agree with EMM. While I'm sure that some are repressed gays themselves, religion and culture play a huge part in this and I would say that for the most part, hate is just hate in this case.

ETA: Also many seem to think that their kids will somehow "catch the gay" if gays are allowed to exist outside of the immaculately decorated apartments on TV.

 

[MikeMangum]

I heard a former colonel on NPR this morning saying (paraphrasing): basically every member of the military has to serve with someone who makes them uncomfortable in some way, and we all learn to deal with it and do our jobs professionally.

Or something like that. Imagine that...just assuming the members of our military can behave like adults. I'm a very strong supporter of the military (being one of these rethuglican voters - unfortunately I seem to have misplaced my white hood, my brown shirt, and my bible belt) and I'm confident that our men and women in uniform can face this challenge with the same competence and professionalism with which they face all the others.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

because racism and bigotry against Jews, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, is about culture and religion and skin color....

and homophobia is about sexuality.

two very different subject matter.

Go on. Why do obsessions about sexuality have to work by other rules than similar neurological problems about a different topic?

 

[Sabrina]

I heard a former colonel on NPR this morning saying (paraphrasing): basically every member of the military has to serve with someone who makes them uncomfortable in some way, and we all learn to deal with it and do our jobs professionally.

Or something like that. Imagine that...just assuming the members of our military can behave like adults. I'm a very strong supporter of the military (being one of these rethuglican voters - unfortunately I seem to have misplaced my white hood, my brown shirt, and my bible belt) and I'm confident that our men and women in uniform can face this challenge with the same competence and professionalism with which they face all the others.

By and large, you'd be correct. Like I said in my (lengthy) post from before though, there are always going to be hiccups. I'm fairly positive that the majority of the military would have no issue with it whatsoever, but there are always the small minority that could raise a stink about it. Whatever; with those, they'll either screw up enough to get kicked out or request to get out on their own if they can't handle working with gay soldiers. Either way, I'm fairly sure the repeal of DADT is inevitable.

 

[Thunder]

Go on. Why do obsessions about sexuality have to work by other rules than similar neurological problems about a different topic?

"help me...help you"

homophobia and racism are very different.

 

[thaiboxerken]

ok. how would YOU explain obsessive and extremely hateful feelings towards homosexuality and homosexuals?

Religious and cultural upbringings.

 

[Thunder]

Religious and cultural upbringings.

i know of and have known many very religious people, who rarely made gay jokes or talked about the gay issue.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

i know of and have known many very religious people, who rarely made gay jokes or talked about the gay issue.

I know of and have known of many very religious people, who rarely made hell jokes or talked about the hell issue.

I still think social influences and fear of the other is the likeliest instigator of homophobia.

 

[thaiboxerken]

i know of and have known many very religious people, who rarely made gay jokes or talked about the gay issue.

I have a different experience. Most homophobes I know are extremely religious and use biblical reasons as to why homosexuality is wrong.

 

[Thunder]

Religious and cultural upbringings.

which sounds like a semi-legit. reason to hate gays and their lifestyle.

but accuse extreme and compulsive homophobes of being repressed homosexuals, and they shut up out of guilt or out of fear..that maybe I am right.

so, in order to shut down homophobia, i suggest we stick with my argument. it make homophobes feel stupid and question themselves and their motives.

trust me...I've seen it happen. you should see the look on their faces. its precious.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I'd rather not use fallacy to bolster my positions. It's dishonest.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

which sounds like a semi-legit. reason to hate gays and their lifestyle.

but accuse extreme and compulsive homophobes of being repressed homosexuals, and they shut up out of guilt or out of fear..that maybe I am right.

so, in order to shut down homophobia, i suggest we stick with my argument. it make homophobes feel stupid and question themselves and their motives.

trust me...I've seen it happen. you should see the look on their faces. its precious.

It's probably tripping a real fear in a few cases, because, as I was saying, in the fundie world homosexuality is something contagious. It says right in their holy bible that you can become homosexual.

So it's a bit like joking that you heard someone sneeze, during a Black Death outbreak. (The deadliest form started with sneezing, hence why you wish someone health for sneeze but not for a cough.) There'll be some very real clenching of sphincters, regardless of whether they actually sneezed or not.

But I think that even more importantly, in their world it's an insult, not very unlike calling them impotent or small dick. So the choice is to swallow the insult or punch your lights out, and most people try to avoid the course of action that will escalate to assault. You know, since there are laws against assault nowadays.

So, yes, you can shut someone up with an ad-hominem, but in the end it's still a fallacy. And it really helps nobody if every discussion of homosexuality degenrates into that kind of BS. For a start, it just makes it easier to dismiss the real arguments as being the same kind of made up BS. And not the least, starting with an insult doesn't exactly get people in a mood to listen to anything else you might have to say.

 

[Skeptic]

I can't stand Pat Oliphant, but when he's right, he's right:

 

[Thunder]

we have highly qualified, patriotic, professional men and women being kicked out of our military, at a time when we need them the MOST, just because of what they do in the bedroom.

nice.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

While funny, that is exactly the sort of situation that would be considered reasonable to investigate. At least to those who find men wearing makeup to be indicative of men who are homosexual or intend to engage in homosexual activity.

we have highly qualified, patriotic, professional men and women being kicked out of our military, at a time when we need them the MOST, just because of what they do in the bedroom.

nice.

In all fairness, DADT dismissals have been on the decline since 9-11. The number increased every year through 2001. Since 2001 the numbers have increased over the previous years only twice and have currently fallen to a third what they were in 2001. Agreed that the rule is silly and disingenuous.