"Don't ask/Don't tell" is very stupid

[ponderingturtle]

Oh good God; seriously? They actually believe that? Why? The UCMJ and fraternization rules apply across the entire service; the language is pretty simplistic and covers both sexes very well; simply changing the sexual orientation of someone doesn't make it apply any less. There is absolutely nothing to indicate otherwise; how on earth did they get this notion?

Because they want show all the problems it will cause, and ignoreing anti franternization laws makes that easier.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Going by that analogy, it wouldn't mean that an anti-jewish does not mean you're a closeted jew, it means the anti-jewish is not secure in his own faith.
Just like a homophobe is not secured about his own sexuality...

Why can you not hate something with out being unconfortable with that part of your life?

Are people who argue the strongest against child molesters and try to get them committed after they serve their time in prison really want to molest children? By your reasoning here, you can't speak out against child molestation with out wanting to molest children.

 

[Sabrina]

Because they want show all the problems it will cause, and ignoreing anti franternization laws makes that easier.

Yes, but they're neglecting to realize that, while they are not open about their sexual preference, it's just about 100% guaranteed that there are homosexual and lesbian members serving in the Armed Forces RIGHT NOW that are subject to and follow those laws and regulations without an issue; simply allowing them to be open about said preference does not mean that the laws will no longer apply. It's a ridiculous assumption on the face of it. But then, no one ever said homophobic people are LOGICAL, I suppose...

 

[Thunder]

Why can you not hate something with out being unconfortable with that part of your life?

we are talking about homophobia. obviously, a white person who hates black people is following a different psychy.

do you really doubt the great possibility that an obsessive and extreme homophobe may indeed be gay himself?

sexuality is a very powerful issue..especially for men. it is unlike any other.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Your Tom-of-Finland hick, if really straight, would more likely laugh at being accused of homosexuality, thinking of all the (hopefully legal-aged) girls he's had. If he sees red and lashes out, it's because he's trying to silence the notion.

The thing here is, does he see it as an insult that demands retribution or not. So the question is does everyone who sees insults as needing retribution have an issue with the nature of the insult.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

we are talking about homophobia. obviously, a white person who hates black people is following a different psychy.

Why? Special pleading?

do you really doubt the great possibility that an obsessive and extreme homophobe may indeed be gay himself?

Nobody was arguing against it as a "possibility" or a "maybe". The question was more like why is it the only explanation for this particular extreme obsession, when other equally extreme obsessions have multiple other possible causes and mechanisms.

sexuality is a very powerful issue..especially for men. it is unlike any other.

I would say hunger is stronger, but I don't see anyone inventing special explanations for vegans, that are unlike that of any other obsession.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Before I comment, would you please tell me where you grew up?

New York City. First in Queens and then in Manhattan (we moved to Soho/Greenwich Village when I was 10 years old).

My parents are from Poland, though, so being Polish-American, I grew up in a culture where homosexuality was a very touchy subject.

So, as you can imagine, I knew lots of people who had an issue with gays but were totally straight themselves.

 

[JimBenArm]

I served years before DADT. Then, if you were "outed" you got booted. Funny thing, I knew quite a few gay/lesbian sailors. They had to be very careful about who they let know this, but they did their job, did it well, and didn't go around trying to "recruit" for the other side.
This whole DADT thing is absolutely stupid. The attitude before that was even more stupid. Bottom line, can the person do the job? Yeah? Then get your stupid politics out of the military and LET them do the job! If some schmuck has a problem with it, they can get over it, or go away to PhelpsLand, where there aren't any gays, unless there are, but they don't count because God hates 'em!

 

[Jono]

Hmm, people don't talk about communists anymore.

 

[Thunder]

Nobody was arguing against it as a "possibility" or a "maybe". The question was more like why is it the only explanation for this particular extreme obsession, when other equally extreme obsessions have multiple other possible causes and mechanisms.

ok. how would YOU explain obsessive and extremely hateful feelings towards homosexuality and homosexuals?

we ain't talking the occasional gay joke. we are talking about almost daily thoughts, jokes, debates, attacks, etc.

i don't know of any culture, no matter how backwards, that could cause almost daily angry thoughts and attacks and debates regarding gays. obviously, something else is going on.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Pretty much Hanlon's Razor. Some people are crazy and that's that

 

[Thunder]

Pretty much Hanlon's Razor. Some people are crazy and that's that

well, i think its more than that. i think it reflects great insecurity with one's sexuality (perhaps due to sexual abuse), or repressed homosexual feelings.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

ok. how would YOU explain obsessive and extremely hateful feelings towards homosexuality and homosexuals?

Proving another cause is not necessary to be skeptical of the presented cause. The cause presented needs to stand on its own merits, not by lack of proof of another cause.

we ain't talking the occasional gay joke. we are talking about almost daily thoughts, jokes, debates, attacks, etc.

Daily? That is hardly obsessive in terms of sexuality. In some circles that is downright asexual.

i don't know of any culture, no matter how backwards, that could cause almost daily angry thoughts and attacks and debates regarding gays. obviously, something else is going on.

You cannot imagine a culture that decides to pick on minority for the very difference that marks that minority as different? It is not a far in leap in the human thought process to go from "those people think differently" to "thos people think differently there must be something wrong with them" to those people think differently there must be something wrong with them and it demands great attention to correct."

I agree that in some individuals that their general sexual repression and more specific repression of homosexuality leads to homophobia, but it is not necessary for all. Seeing how easily people adopt forms of prejudice on the flimsiest of grounds I doubt that the revulsion of homosexuality by way of self-denial is the predominating reason.

 

[Thunder]

I agree that in some individuals that their general sexual repression and more specific repression of homosexuality leads to homophobia, but it is not necessary for all. Seeing how easily people adopt forms of prejudice on the flimsiest of grounds I doubt that the revulsion of homosexuality by way of self-denial is the predominating reason.

i still think that, especially for men, homophobia is a special kind of prejudice, very different from racism or anti-Semitism. IMHO, anytime you mix sexuality with hatred, there is something going on which is a lot deeper then simple scapegoating and bigotry.

like i said, any time i encounter someone who constantly makes gay jokes, constantly makes insulting or angry statements about gays, I start to wonder about their own sexual demons.

and I am also curious with the backlash that "homophobia suggests repressed homosexual feelings" hypothesis gets. it almost like they are saying:

"what..don't I have the right to hate fags? what are you tryin' to say? you sayin that since I hate fags, I may be a fag??? well #### you!!!! I'm no fag!!! I hate fags!!!! I hate them!!!!!....

....wanna hang out sometime?"

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

i still think that, especially for men, homophobia is a special kind of prejudice, very different from racism or anti-Semitism. IMHO, anytime you mix sexuality with hatred, there is something going on which is a lot deeper then simple scapegoating and bigotry.

I disagree with both of these statements. In my personal experience the revulsion of homosexuals from men has felt very similar to the sudden upspring of "white" American revulsion to "brown" hispanics I had noticed in the 90s. Both reviled groups were attributed to be insidious, invasive and especially corrupting in ways that boggle a rational mind. Of course my experience fails to be scientifically rigorous.

like i said, any time i encounter someone who constantly makes gay jokes, constantly makes insulting or angry statements about gays, I start to wonder about their own sexual demons.

You start to wonder but you do not know. I start to wonder about people who constantely make insulting and angry statements about hispanics, but I doubt the brunt of them are secretly fearful of possibly being hispanic. You are quite possibly basing this of a very narrow selection, as could I.

and I am also curious with the backlash that "homophobia suggests repressed homosexual feelings" hypothesis gets. it almost like they are saying:

"what..don't I have the right to hate fags? what are you tryin' to say? you sayin that since I hate fags, I may be a fag??? well #### you!!!! I'm no fag!!! I hate fags!!!! I hate them!!!!!....

....wanna hang out sometime?"

The reaction is not generally out of a sense that homophobia is justified, but misattributing the cause can be harmful to combating it. Hand waving that all homophobes are just secretly homosexual plays into the prejudiced theories that all homosexuals are actively trying to convert the entire human population to homosexuality. It causes defensiveness in people we are trying to convince to reconsider their stance and degrades the arguements against homophobia. At least in my opinion.

Now there are exceptions. Those exceptions appeal to my sense of seeing hyopcrites fall in a very public meteoric blaze. Ted Haggard quite possibly fueled his homophobia out of self-hatred for his personal "gay urges." I am not doubtful of that specific claim. I am doubtful of any claim that suscribes a general cause that is so narrow.

 

[Thunder]

You start to wonder but you do not know. I start to wonder about people who constantely make insulting and angry statements about hispanics, but I doubt the brunt of them are secretly fearful of possibly being hispanic.

apples and oranges, my friend. you cannot compare homophobia and ethnic prejudice. they are two very different things.

one is simple fear and hatred of "the other".

the other is fear, anxiety, and anger at a form of sexuality that makes one deeply uncomfortable...and even makes one question their own sexuality.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

I still disagree. Not all or even most homophobia appears to be based on not wanting to questions one's own homosexuality in my experience.

Fear, anxiety and anger at a form of practices that makes one deeply uncomfortable seems a very accurate description of racism/cultural discrimination.

Again, I am not discounting that it applies to a portion of homophobics, but I doubt your experience that it is the predominant cause instead of the usual causes for fear of the different and the other.

 

[Thunder]

Fear, anxiety and anger at a form of practices that makes one deeply uncomfortable seems a very accurate description of racism/cultural discrimination.

racism is not anxiety or fear over a different form of practice. it is simple hatred of a different color skin, hair, or diffferent language.

a black person and white person can act and talk exactly the same, and the black person can still be hated cause he is black.

homophobia is ALL about hatred of a type of behavior. obviously if gays acted just like straight people..there would be nothing to hate.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

racism is not anxiety or fear over a different form of practice. it is simple hatred of a different color skin, hair, or diffferent language.

a black person and white person can act and talk exactly the same, and the black person can still be hated cause he is black.

You are simplifying racism to just white fear of black people in the US, which is a narrow though easily accessible strain of it. Even so generally speaking, black people who "act white" are more easily accepted by those who generally dislike black people. Remember the white's only basketball league discussion? The major bigotry was about how black people acted. It wasn't the skin color, it was that black people couldn't act like "civilized white americans." There is a lot of behaviour differences that arise in cultures that spurs racism. The skin color difference just makes it easy to make snap judgements of separation. Behavioural differences are subscribed to skin color in racism, and those alleged behavioural differences are used as excuses to why the "other" is less and demonized. "Black people are inherently violent, so it is okay to treat all blacks as criminals."

Then take racism towards Hispanics. People just cannot get straight that brand of racism so it largely falls to behaviour as much as skin color. At work someone noticed that the German descended guy was definitely darker than the Mexican guy and that it was the style of facial hair (a groomed style not something that grew naturally) and slight US-Mexican accent that got him pegged as Mexican.

ETA extra!

homophobia is ALL about hatred of a type of behavior. obviously if gays acted just like straight people..there would be nothing to hate.

Then why all the fear for the homosexuals who otherwise appear normal but practice a little same sex lovin' at home? The fear of "stealth" gays seems to be stronger than that of "appropriately flaming" gays. This happened at another job I worked at, where a few people were okay with the flaming effeminate homosexual men but were creeped out by the more manly homosexual men that were more common at work.

 

[Thunder]

Then why all the fear for the homosexuals who otherwise appear normal but practice a little same sex lovin' at home? The fear of "stealth" gays seems to be stronger than that of "appropriately flaming" gays. This happened at another job I worked at, where a few people were okay with the flaming effeminate homosexual men but were creeped out by the more manly homosexual men that were more common at work.

that makes absolutely no sense to me. if anything, I would think that a "normal" homosexual, who seemed like everyone else, and had no stereotypical gay mannerisms, except for the knowledge that he was gay and not straight, would make it much more easier to accept him.

at least it would for me. how can you fear someone for being different...if they don't seem different at all?