"Don't ask/Don't tell" is very stupid

[GreNME]

Oh good God; seriously? They actually believe that? Why? The UCMJ and fraternization rules apply across the entire service; the language is pretty simplistic and covers both sexes very well; simply changing the sexual orientation of someone doesn't make it apply any less. There is absolutely nothing to indicate otherwise; how on earth did they get this notion?

Well, I won't go as far as to actually claim to know for a fact that this is what they believe, but looking at every single argument from the DADT-proponent side of things the claims consistently come from the perspective that somehow the UCMJ and fraternizing rules somehow don't apply. If it looks and quacks like a duck, and all that.

Of course, I also believe that the gender separation issues ignore these factors as well, but since I doubt that the military is going to be able to weed out the cultural-religious constructs on something as pervasive as gender roles (and the accompanying inevitable discussion of military roles for women), I don't see my belief on the issue getting much traction in terms of having a frank and honest discussion on the matter. However, ignoring the already-established rules in the military regarding conduct seems to be a staple in the arguments in favor of DADT.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I was just thinking the other day that an all-lesbian platoon would be awesome in battle.

(This was discussed in God Emperor of Dune, IIRC.)

 

[Thunder]

Going by that analogy, it wouldn't mean that an anti-jewish does not mean you're a closeted jew, it means the anti-jewish is not secure in his own faith.
Just like a homophobe is not secured about his own sexuality...

well clearly, obsessive bigots are simply insecure people. it may be insecure in their beliefs, or insecure with themselves in general.

but homophobia is special. it deals with sexuality..and our most primal instincts and urges..and fantasies.

seeing two men kissing or having sex...or imagining two men kissing or having sex...brings out many emotions in straight men. most of them uncomfortable. but most of us just shrug our shoulders and walk away.

however, for the severely sexually insecure individual..or the closeted homophobe, such a sight or thought brings out intense emotions of anger, denial, and hatred. anger at themselves, and hatred of themselves.

..I should write again.

 

[GreNME]

I was just thinking the other day that an all-lesbian platoon would be awesome in battle.

(This was discussed in God Emperor of Dune, IIRC.)

You recall correctly (I'm a huge fan of GEoD and Frank Herbert in general).

I don't think that the idea holds water (it basically plays off the Spartan ideal with a twist), but I do think that homosexuals pose no particular weakness or problem being integrated in a highly-trained and specialized military force.

 

[tyr_13]

Obviously people who don't want homosexuals in the US military don't care about the safety of the country. This has been pretty obvious for a while now.

 

[Thunder]

Obviously people who don't want homosexuals in the US military don't care about the safety of the country. This has been pretty obvious for a while now.

well, its more like this:

"if you are more worried about having gays in the military, than making sure we have the best, brightest, best-trained, best-equipped, most patriotic, most loyal and best experienced soldiers that we can have, then your priorities regarding national defense are ****ed up."

 

[thaiboxerken]

What are people's responses here to the claim that they don't allow women and men to share showers together so they shouldn't allow gays to serve openly for the same shower-related reason?

I suppose the example of firemen (Who presumably shower together) could be used. Their cohesion hasn't fallen apart.

What I just don't get is why bigotry and prejudice ("Most of the military are conservatives" say the Repubs) is rewarded.

I think showers should be co-ed. It might come a long ways to stop the connotation that nakedness = sex.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I am anxiously awaiting the following strawman arguments:

-so being anti-Jewish means you are a closet Jew?

-being anti-black means you have black ancestors?

-being anti-Asian means you are really Chinese?

-being a misogynist means you are secretly a woman?

Kindly point out what my strawman was or, basically, take a hike.

But, you know, those will do just fine to illustrate a point. You don't seem to assume "being anti-Asian means you are really Chinese", but cling to the idea that being anti-gay absolutely must be unexplainable by anything else than closet homosexuality. Why? What's the difference? Why can people be bigotted about the 4 issues you listed above without any such hidden things, but being bigotted about gays totally needs a different explanation?

and btw, we are not talking about your average American typical occasional homophobe. we are talking about obsessive homophobes, those who can't get it off their mind, those who harrasse and even attack assumed homosexuals.

As opposed to people who can't get something else off their mind?

- Is out friend who just started yet another "dumb goy" thread insecure that he's really Jewish?

- Are the white supremacists insecure about being white?

- Are black supremacists insecure about being really black?

Sometimes subscribing to such bigotry is just a case of drawing an "us-vs-them" line in the sand, and proclaiming the "us" group to be the superior one is the only claim to glory some people have. It's an easy one, too. You don't need any special achievements or skills or anything, you just need to be born in the "right" group. Instant claim to glory.

And some people just can't feel good about themselves, without dragging someone else below their level.

But then some are insecure indeed. And for some it's something else.

But apparently only for homophobes different rules apply

 

[Thunder]

Kindly point out what my strawman was or, basically, take a hike.

But, you know, those will do just fine to illustrate a point. You don't seem to assume "being anti-Asian means you are really Chinese", but cling to the idea that being anti-gay absolutely must be unexplainable by anything else than closet homosexuality.

well, there's your strawman!!!!

i didn't say that any and all anti-homosexual feelings were the result of being a closet-gay.

there were my words:

"I'm very sorry, but extreme homophobia is caused by sexual insecurity, or closeted homosexual feelings. I cannot imagine any other reasons for holding such angry feelings due to the sexuality of another person."

I said that extreme, obsessive anti-gay feelings were most likely to be the result of insecurity with one's sexuality and/or repressed homosexual feelings.

so, unless you obsess about homosexuality, think about how ugly and nasty it is on a daily basis, frequently call gay people "fag" and harrass them, or often find yourself debating with people about how evil or bad homosexuality is, than you really got nothing to worry about.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

That doesn't change my point.

Do you think that extreme white-supremacists, the one who obsess, harrass, attack, and in one case (see that death penalty thread) even killed a girl for dating a black, are driven by insecurity about their white-ness?

Do you think that extreme anti-abortionists, you know, the kind who obsess about the gory details, and put pics of aborted foetuses on billboards, and harrass or attack anyone going into an abortion clinic, and even go as far as to shoot doctors, are driven by insecurity about whether or not they'd want an abortion? Even the guys?

Or do you think that only homophobia can be that extreme as to need a whole different explanation?

 

[Thunder]

That doesn't change my point.

Do you think that extreme white-supremacists, the one who obsess, harrass, attack, and in one case (see that death penalty thread) even killed a girl for dating a black, are driven by insecurity about their white-ness?

i don't know why this is such an issue for you, but I will say this,

its okay man.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Irrelevant ad-hominem duly noted.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

and btw, we are not talking about your average American typical occasional homophobe. we are talking about obsessive homophobes, those who can't get it off their mind, those who harrass and even attack assumed homosexuals.

I'll buy the theory that some to a lot of homophobes are gay themselves but not all. A good deal are, yes. Others have other reasons for being homophobic. Try telling a gun toting NRA member bear hunting macho man wife beater shirt wearing Republican voting redneck from the South that the reason he doesn't like gays is cause he's gay himself.

And then try making your way to the nearest ICU unit before you lose consciousness and while remembering to keep constant pressure on the multiple bullet holes.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I'll buy the theory that some to a lot of homophobes are gay themselves but not all. A good deal are, yes. Others have other reasons for being homophobic. Try telling a gun toting NRA member bear hunting macho man wife beater shirt wearing Republican voting redneck from the South that the reason he doesn't like gays is cause he's gay himself.

And then try making your way to the nearest ICU unit before you lose consciousness and while remembering to keep constant pressure on the multiple bullet holes.

But it's the ones with the strongest reactions that seem most likely to be repressed themselves. If they really didn't think it was a possibility, they would have less explosive reactions. The normal reaction to absurdity is laughter. People only react violently when it's not absurdity, but an unwelcome truth.

I'd say the super-macho angry homophobe is more likely to be not only heavily repressing, but overcompensating (and in a completely counterproductive way--hypermasculinity is both gay in itself and attractive to gays). Real straight guys don't think about themselves in that way, or wonder about their effects on other guys.

Your Tom-of-Finland hick, if really straight, would more likely laugh at being accused of homosexuality, thinking of all the (hopefully legal-aged) girls he's had. If he sees red and lashes out, it's because he's trying to silence the notion.

 

[Thunder]

Try telling a gun toting NRA member bear hunting macho man wife beater shirt wearing Republican voting redneck from the South that the reason he doesn't like gays is cause he's gay himself.

well of course, he will kill you. does that somehow mean he is not gay?

like i said, before...I am talking about obsessive extreme homophobes....not the occasional benign gay joke kinda guy.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

The hypothetical macho man gun nut is homophobic not because he's gay but because he grew up in a society where homosexuality, especially male homosexuality, is unspeakable, homophobia is institutionalized and to accuse someone of it is the worst insult imaginable. He doesn't have personal issues (well, not necessarily), he's a product of his environment.

He'd laugh and then put you into a coma.

 

[Thunder]

The hypothetical macho man gun nut is homophobic not because he's gay but because he grew up in a society where homosexuality, especially male homosexuality, is unspeakable, homophobia is institutionalized and to accuse someone of it is the worst insult imaginable.

there are millions of these men...and probably 10% of them are in fact.....gay.

but, (for the 78th time), if being homophobic is his daily specialty, his favorite pastime, his claim to fame, his most common debate topic...chances are he would register positive on a gay-dar.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Eh, it seems to me easy to register on gaydar. Had a few detect me on their gaydar in a couple of MMOs. Admittedly, I was going on on chat about what _fabulous_ delicate butterfly earrings and necklace my (male barbarian berserker) character is wearing, so I can't blame them

 

[332nd]

Eh, it seems to me easy to register on gaydar. Had a few detect me on their gaydar in a couple of MMOs. Admittedly, I was going on on chat about what _fabulous_ delicate butterfly earrings and necklace my (male barbarian berserker) character is wearing, so I can't blame them

Heh. I was a member of a gay super group on CoH. The joke was that even among fictional/avatar/superheroes on an MMO, I not only was still the only token black, I was the token straight.

ETA:

The hypothetical macho man gun nut is homophobic not because he's gay but because he grew up in a society where homosexuality, especially male homosexuality, is unspeakable, homophobia is institutionalized and to accuse someone of it is the worst insult imaginable. He doesn't have personal issues (well, not necessarily), he's a product of his environment.

He'd laugh and then put you into a coma.

Before I comment, would you please tell me where you grew up?

 

[TragicMonkey]

The hypothetical macho man gun nut is homophobic not because he's gay but because he grew up in a society where homosexuality, especially male homosexuality, is unspeakable, homophobia is institutionalized and to accuse someone of it is the worst insult imaginable. He doesn't have personal issues (well, not necessarily), he's a product of his environment.

He'd laugh and then put you into a coma.

And he'd be more upset about homosexuality if, living in that environment and growing up that way, he were secretly gay himself.

Things are different today than they were twenty years ago. Back then, people still went through a self-hating denial phase when they realized they were gay. The more intolerant the environment and upbringing, the more upsetting it is, and the more they have to hide it.