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Donald Rumsfeld, at it again....

Now I'm even more confused.

The U.S. military campaign in Iraq has been better than textbook. The invasion lasted but a dozen days, with very, very few U.S. casulties.

Even the occupation has come with very few casulties, when compared to occupations in the past.

Nobody questions the success of the invasion. Bang, Zoom, Done.
Except for a few details like those pointed out by fuelair which lead up to the occupation. And the current mess.

Very few casualties my left buttock.
We are now 3 years into the occupation that there was not supposed to be much of - according to Rumsfeld. Which means that there are relatively far more casualties than the number Rumsfeld sold the public and the congress on.
 
Oh, my memory is far better than this.
I was promised strewn flowers and being out in six months.
People who dared imply that this would cost 10 billion dollars or more were rightly dispatched. Huzzah.
 
Rumsfeld says: "With the growing lethality and availability of weapons, can we truly afford to believe that somehow vicious extremists can be appeased?"

Jerry Seinfeld says: "Who are these people?"

Show me an appeaser, otherwise this looks like the Rumspeak version of your basic strawman argument.
Well, it's kinda hard to identify who Rumsfeld was talking about. He says nothing about the administration's "political enemies." He doesn't name or even mention any Democrats, and the only U.S. politician he refers to is a dead Republican, Senator William Borah (who famously said he wished he could have sat down and had a talk with Hitler, so that the whole Poland invasion could have been averted). He does criticize the media, specifically Newsweek and CNN, and Amnesty International and he takes vigorous issue with the mindset that, as he puts it, "somehow vicious extremists can be appeased."

So I agree, it's kinda hard to figure out who he's talking about. Sometimes the best way to find out if you've pricked a sore spot is to listen to who squeals:
Secretary Rumsfeld's reckless comments show why America is not as safe as it can or should be five years after 9/11. The Bush White House is more interested in lashing out at its political enemies and distracting from its failures than it is in winning the War on Terror and in bringing an end to the war in Iraq.

If there's one person who has failed to learn the lessons of history it's Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld ignored military experts when he rushed to war without enough troops, without sufficient body armor, and without a plan to succeed. Under this Administration's watch, terror attacks have increased, Iraq has fallen into civil war, and our military has been stretched thin.

We have a choice to make today. Do we trust Secretary Rumsfeld to make the right decisions to keep us safe after he has been so consistently wrong since the start of the Iraq War? Or, do we change course in Iraq and put in place new leadership that will put the safety of the American people ahead of partisan games? For the sake of the safety of this country, it is time to make a change.
Now, does Reid actually agree with what Rumsfeld said, and is just playing some election-year politics, in the hopes that a year from now, he'll be the Senate Majority Leader?

Or does he disagree? Does he actually believe that terrorists can be appeased?
 
If you have not quite caught my drift, this is it: you don't appease the slime, you wipe it out - we failed in this because we played games instead of making war - and I loathe it because our soldiers are dying for someone elses inabilities. Not fair, not rational, not appeasement or sympathy for the bad guys.
This sounds like something I was saying in another thread: You don't get a post-war "insurgency" if the war was terrible and and the killing and destruction widespread, rather than "surgical."
 
c'mon BPSCG, you're better than that. People criticize the way he (mis)handled the war, and Rumsfeld responds by saying that he disagrees with those who think that terrorists can be appeased. And you suggest that anyone who complains about Rumsfeld's tactics does think terrorists can be appeased?

No, I don't think terrorists can be appeased, and yes, I think Rumsfeld was criticizing people like me. I think he totally and completely blew the conduct of the war, and now our own soldiers are paying the price. He is not man enough to admit he just possibly might have made a tiny mistake in his initial calculations and so he is blowing smoke every which way he can. You need not assist him.
 
While the AP did appear to misrepresent Rumsfeld, it's never a good idea to start using Nazi analogies when analyzing the modern world.

Godwin's Law doesn't just apply to folks who compare Bush to Hilter!

Godwin's Law doesn't apply to conservatives who are simply drawing an analogy to make a point. ;)
 
c'mon BPSCG, you're better than that. People criticize the way he (mis)handled the war, and Rumsfeld responds by saying that he disagrees with those who think that terrorists can be appeased.
Where does he say, or even suggest, in his speech that he is talking about critics of his handling of the Iraq war? Read the speech in its entirety and you'll see he's not talking about Iraq in particular; he barely even mentions it in passing.

And you suggest that anyone who complains about Rumsfeld's tactics does think terrorists can be appeased?
A major part of the speech discusses appeasement; you can even argue that it's the central point of the speech. So it's perfectly fair to ask if someone who takes exception to the speech really favors appeasement - or is he just playing election-year politics?

No, I don't think terrorists can be appeased, and yes, I think Rumsfeld was criticizing people like me. I think he totally and completely blew the conduct of the war, and now our own soldiers are paying the price.
You may be right (fuelair evidently agrees, believes we should have gone in much harder than we did), but neither the Iraq war nor criticism of how it was handled, was the topic of the speech. Rumsfeld was talking about terrorism worldwide, how to fight it, and warning of the consequences of appeasement. To argue, "You bungled Iraq!" does not address the point he was making. It's a deliberate distraction designed either to get votes in an election year (the more charitable explanation), or it's the squeal of someone who thinks the knife cuts too close to the bone.
 
Well, here's something we agree on. It's a deliberate distraction designed to get votes in an election year.
 
That whacky Rumsfeld speech was just the latest installment of the new White House push to best the best face on the Iraq War and the five year anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

Ugh! There will be a good bit more of this sort of thing as various Bush lackeys are trotted out with their respective message of the day for about the next three weeks.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060830/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_islamic_fascism

Republicans target 'Islamic fascism'

WASHINGTON - President Bush in recent days has recast the global war on terror into a "war against Islamic fascism." Fascism, in fact, seems to be the new buzz word for Republicans in an election season dominated by an unpopular war in Iraq.

...

The White House on Wednesday announced Bush would elaborate on this theme in a series of speeches beginning Thursday at the American Legion convention in Salt Lake City and running through his address to the U.N. General Assembly on Sept. 19.

...

Depicting the struggle as one against Islamic fascists is "an appropriate definition of the war that we're in," said GOP pollster Ed Goeas. "I think it's effective in that it definitively defines the enemy in a way that we can't because they're not in uniforms."

...
 
Depicting the struggle as one against Islamic fascists is "an appropriate definition of the war that we're in," said GOP pollster Ed Goeas

Yeah, but it doesn't account for the wars we AREN'T in.

When do we attack Saudi Arabia?
 
'By *any* means neccessary'? Of course not; murder is never a viable option. It should have said, 'By any legal means neccessary'. The mistake was mine.

Thankyou for clarifying that.

The very fact that Rumsfeld is still trying to tie critics of this war to ANYTHING 'un-American', is still offensive, regardless.

But that was rather my point: I don't think he DID make any such comparison. That's why I provided the link to his original speech: the AP mischaracterized it, and criticisms of Rumsfeld based on that misrepresentation don't mean much. If you want to criticise what Rumsfeld ACTUALLY said, I suggest you actually quote him directly, rather than the AP. I think if you actually read through the speech itself, you'll find that much of what made you angry from the AP story simply isn't there in the speech at all. In fact, the speech isn't really even about the Iraq war, OR its critics, but about the war on terrorism in general.

I'm tired of being looked at as un-Patriotic, un-American, un-co-operative, and un- anything else,

Sure, but Rumsfeld didn't call you any of those things. And I'm likewise tired of being called a rube, a gullible idiot, etc. But you implied I WAS those things. But I called you none of the above, I never implied you were any of the above, I just had the gall to point out that Rumsfeld didn't either. So play your victim game somewhere else, and either concede that you have no complaint about this speech of Rumsfeld or point out the actual quotes of his that you object to. Relying on the AP to generate outrage for you is a waste of everyone's time.
 
When do we attack Saudi Arabia?

Do you WANT us to attack Saudi Arabia? Do you EXPECT us to attack Saudi Arabia? How would we do it, and what would be the consequences for the world if we did?

I don't think you want us to, I don't think you expect us to, I don't think you know how we'd do it, and I don't think you've really thought about what would happen if we did. But without answers to the above questions (especially the last one), YOUR question cannot be taken seriously.
 
Do you WANT us to attack Saudi Arabia? Do you EXPECT us to attack Saudi Arabia?

No and No.

OTOH, if we are really fighting a war against Islamic Facism, the question is, why AREN'T we attacking Saudi Arabia?

Because they supply us with oil, and apparenly, Islamic Facism is acceptable then.
 
Transcript:

OLBERMANN: The man who sees absolutes where all other men see nuances and shades of meaning is either a prophet or a quack. Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet. We end the COUNTDOWN where we began, our No. 1 story with a special comment on Mr. Rumsfeld‘s remarkable speech to the American Legion yesterday. It demands the deep analysis and the sober contemplation of every American, for it did not merely serve to impugn the morality or intelligence, indeed the loyalty of the majority of Americans who impose the transient occupants of the highest offices in the land.

Worst still, it credits those same transient occupants, our employees, with a total omniscience, a total omniscience which neither commonsense nor this administration‘s track record, at home or abroad, suggest they deserve it. Descent and disagreement with government is the life‘s blood of human freedom and not merely because it the first roadblock against the kind of tyranny the men Mr. Rumsfeld likes to think of his troops still fight this very evening in Iraq. It is also essential, because just every once in a while, it is right and the power to which it speaks is wrong.

In a small irony however, Mr. Rumsfeld speech writer was adroit in invoking the memory of the appeasement of the Nazis for in their time, there was another government faced with true peril with a growing evil, powerful, and remorseless. That government, like Mr. Rumsfeld‘s, had a monopoly on all the facts. It too had the secret information, it alone had the true picture of the threat. It too, dismissed and insulted its critics in terms like Mr. Rumsfeld‘s. Questioning their intellect and their morality.

That government was England‘s in the 1930. It knew Hitler posed in true threat to Europe, let alone to England. It knew Germany was not re-arming in violation of all treaties and accords. It knew that the hard evidence it had received, which contradicted its own policies, its own conclusions, its own omniscient, needed to be dismissed.

The English government of Neville Chamberlain (ph) already knew the truth. Most relevant of all, it knew that its staunchest critics need to be marginalized and isolated, in fact it portrayed the foremost of them as a blood-thirsty warmonger who was, if not truly senile, at best morally or intellectually confused. That critics name was Winston Churchill.

Sadly we have no Winston Churchill‘s evidence among this evening, we have only Donald Rumsfeld‘s demonizing disagreement, the way Neville Chamberlain demonized Winston Churchill. History and 163 million pounds of (INAUDIBLE) bombs over England have taught us that all Mr. Chamberlain had was his certainty and his own confusion, a confusion that suggested that the office cannot only make the man, but that the office can make the facts.

Thus did Mr. Rums make an apt historical analogy accepting the fact he has the battery plugged in backwards. His government absolute and exclusive in his knowledge is not the version of please one that stood up to the Nazis it is the modern version of the government of Neville Chamberlain.

But back to today‘s omniscient ones, that about what Mr. Rumsfeld is confused is simply this, this is a democracy, still, sometimes just barely and as such, all voices count, not just his. Had he or his president perhaps proven any of their prior claims of omniscience, about Osama bin Laden‘s plans five years ago, about Saddam Hussein‘s weapons four year, ago, about Hurricane Katrina‘s impact one year ago, we all might be able to swallow hard and except their omniscience as a bearable, even useful recipe of fact plus ego.

But to date, this government has proved little besides its own arrogance and its own hubris. Mr. Rumsfeld is also personally confused, morally or intellectually, about his standing in this matter. From Iraq to Katrina, to flu vaccine shortages to the entire fog of fear which continues to envelopes our nation, he, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney and their cronies have inadvertently or intentionally profited and benefited, both personally and politically.

And yet he can stand up in public and question the morality and the intellect of those of us who dare ask just the receipt for the emperor new clothes.

In what country was Mr. Rumsfeld raised? As a child at whose heroism did he read? On what side of the battle for freedom did he dream one day to fight? With what country has he confused the United States of America?

The confusion, we as its citizens must now address, is stark and forbidding. But variations of it have faced our forefathers when men like Nixon and McCarthy and Curtis Lemay have darkened our skies and obscured our flag.

Note, with hope in your heart, that those earlier Americans always found their way to the light and we can too. The confusion is about whether this secretary of defense and this administration are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the terrorists seek, the destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for which the same veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City so valiantly fought.

And about Mr. Rumsfeld‘s other main assertion of that this country faces a new type of fascism as he was correct to remind us that a government that knew everything could get everything wrong. So too was he right when he said that. Though probably not in the way he thought he meant. This country faces a new type of fascism, indeed.

Although I presumption use his sign off each night in feeble tribute, I have no utterly no claims to the words of the exemplary journalist, Edward R. Murrow. But never in the trial of 1,000 years of writing could I come close to matching how he phrased a warning to an earlier generation of us, at a time when other polarities thought they and they alone knew everything and branded those who disagreed confused or immoral.

Thus for give me for reading Murrow in full.

“We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty” he said in 1954, “We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not disended from fearful men, not from men who fear to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular. And so, goodnight and good luck.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14601135/
 
No and No.

OTOH, if we are really fighting a war against Islamic Facism, the question is, why AREN'T we attacking Saudi Arabia?

Because they supply us with oil, and apparenly, Islamic Facism is acceptable then.

You really didn't follow through on that thought, did you? Yes, they supply not only us, but much of the world with oil. What would happen if we attacked them? They've got the entire world economy by the short hairs. Attacking them would inflict an enormous price not only on us, but on EVERYONE in the world. And if you think this is just greed talking, you're incredibly short-sighted. Africa, for example, would get screwed far more than we would under such a scenario. They depend on oil too, but unlike us, they don't have the pockets to dig into when oil prices skyrocket. They won't be ABLE to buy oil. Their economies won't just hit a depression, they will implode. And what, pray tell, do you think will happen then? Can you say "Congo writ large"?

No, Saudi Arabia's Islamic fascism is not acceptable. But it's also something we cannot afford to confront with a military invasion either. The fact that we aren't in the mood to send the global economy into the toilet (and condemn millions of people to violent deaths in the process, BTW) doesn't mean that we're somehow "OK" with how things currently are. And your lack of any acknowledgement of that problem demonstrates that there really was no reason to take your question seriously.
 
You really didn't follow through on that thought, did you? Yes, they supply not only us, but much of the world with oil. What would happen if we attacked them? They've got the entire world economy by the short hairs. Attacking them would inflict an enormous price not only on us, but on EVERYONE in the world. And if you think this is just greed talking, you're incredibly short-sighted. Africa, for example, would get screwed far more than we would under such a scenario. They depend on oil too, but unlike us, they don't have the pockets to dig into when oil prices skyrocket. They won't be ABLE to buy oil. Their economies won't just hit a depression, they will implode. And what, pray tell, do you think will happen then? Can you say "Congo writ large"?

No, Saudi Arabia's Islamic fascism is not acceptable. But it's also something we cannot afford to confront with a military invasion either. The fact that we aren't in the mood to send the global economy into the toilet (and condemn millions of people to violent deaths in the process, BTW) doesn't mean that we're somehow "OK" with how things currently are. And your lack of any acknowledgement of that problem demonstrates that there really was no reason to take your question seriously.
*salutes*

This position leads to the question of time and worry, in the Ring of Fire around the Indian Ocean.

If the greater Islamic and Arab world can't consolidate its place in the world now, when in sucks in so much capital and wealth due to oil, what chance will it have when the wells start to run dry?

Syria faces that question within the next decade, with grim prospects. The Saudis in a generation will face the prospect of the well running dry. Then, who will take them seriously?

Their time to act is now, while they can wield economic clout to influence world events. When that degrades, so will their ability to change the world.

DR
 
“We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty”

Indeed. But Rumsfeld never did confuse the two. In fact, he never made the claim that ANYONE was being disloyal to the US in that speech. Which is why people keep posting what OTHER people (starting with the AP, and now Olbermann) said about what Rumsfeld said, instead of actually quoting the man himself. Even though I posted a link to his transcript near the top of this thread. Why is that? Hmmm....
 
Do you WANT us to attack Saudi Arabia? Do you EXPECT us to attack Saudi Arabia? How would we do it, and what would be the consequences for the world if we did?

I don't think you want us to, I don't think you expect us to, I don't think you know how we'd do it, and I don't think you've really thought about what would happen if we did. But without answers to the above questions (especially the last one), YOUR question cannot be taken seriously.

Wow! Those would have been good questions to ask three and a half years ago.

Daredelvis
 
If you want to criticise what Rumsfeld ACTUALLY said, I suggest you actually quote him directly....
And I'm likewise tired of being called a rube, a gullible idiot, etc. But you implied I WAS those things.
hmmm. If you want to criticise what Rumsfeld Temporal Renegade ACTUALLY said, I suggest you actually quote him directly
 

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