Don Piper - 90 Minutes In Heaven

[Reality Check]

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[Tricky]

We live in a universe of star light skeptics believe that when we die there is nothing but darkness...

No they don't. When you die, you simply cease to exist. No light. No darkness. No perception of any kind. Do you remember what it was like before you were conceived? Sort of like that.

...but we are told that Gods light is there waiting on the other side and all questions will be answered.
Even in our natural surroundings at night we are continuously lighting our way in the night to move forward in our travels. rything IMHO, so in the darkness do you move forward if you can’t see?

You may be told that. You may even choose to believe it. But you do so because it makes you feel good, not because it is supported by evidence. If you badly need to be made to feel good and not be afraid of death, then I can understand why this myth is so important to you. It is too scary for you to try to imagine simply not being. Enjoy your comforting story if it keeps you from being scared.

Some of us don't scare so easily.

We are moving forward in time, we are allowed time to learn how we are flawed with out Gods’ light guiding our way allowing us to keep moving forward.
Motion is the key to everything IMHO, so in the darkness do you move forward if you can’t see?

Of course we are moving forward in time. (Hint: Time only moves forward.) But your metaphor is badly flawed. If knowledge is light, then science has shed more light on the world than any God or gods ever imagined by mankind. Thanks to science, even blind people have a chance to see in the dark. That is because science works. God doesn't.

 

[JFrankA]

If God is not un-caring then I would think the senerio would be like I discribed and I really don't know if you have made up your mind but even I question and this is the only way I can see that question being ansewered from a beliver perspective.

Have at it, I am.

Funny, my reply wasn't about any god, whether it's yours or anyone Else's concept of what a god would be or act. It was a response because it seemed to me that you have made the decision for me that I have decided. And further, being someone who used to believe, I can see from a believer's perspective can make a question and answer it.

However, from a purely factual, scientific perspective, without beliefs, with just facts, I can see how those answers are given as well.

I do not belittle your beliefs. Indeed, if believing in a god makes you a better person, so much the better, go for it.

However, for me personally, removing the beliefs and replacing them with evidence, science and verifiable facts, makes me a better person.

I don't worry about an "after-life". I worry about this life: the only life that has been factually verified. Therefore, friends and even strangers are worth more to me now because I do not believe, since there is no evidence to any kind of "after life". So the result is that I am a good person not because I'm afraid of the "dark".

And this expands beyond just this planet. The workings of the universe is much more amazing and real because there isn't an all powerful being planning it all out. See, knowing that there is a god, being sure of an afterlife, completely confident that an omnipotent being created everything in the universe gives away the secret. Everything is answered. There is no mystery. If there is no mystery, then the only thing left is "I know".

I don't. That's the beauty of being an atheist. I don't know. I want to learn, but I don't want to be misled simply because of what another person or people may believe. I need facts. I need things that have can stand the test of what has been previously solidly proven scientifically. And god hasn't stood to that. The stories in the bible don't stand. The belief of a "light" or a "dark" after someone dies doesn't stand.

People may have claimed to see it, or feel it, but, being a magician, I know how to fool people into seeing and feeling things so that they come away believing that I can perform miracles.

So again, you may believe. That's what you need. That's fine with me. I'm not trying to "convert" you. Not my business, desire nor right to do so.

But please, don't tell me that "I know". I don't believe. That is not "I know".

 

[ImaginalDisc]

you got moderated because you broke the forum rules, not for any other reason
or is this another one of those "the mods have an agenda" whines ?
doesn't matter, as you have just broken the rules again in exactly the same manner I have again reported your post to the mod team
thanks for playing

No, the point is that "attack the argument, not the arguer" is a rule here and it's highly inconsistent kk to be an acceptable target.

 

[edge]

sleep time bye...

No they don't. When you die, you simply cease to exist. No light. No darkness. No perception of any kind. Do you remember what it was like before you were conceived? Sort of like that.



You may be told that. You may even choose to believe it. But you do so because it makes you feel good, not because it is supported by evidence. If you badly need to be made to feel good and not be afraid of death, then I can understand why this myth is so important to you. It is too scary for you to try to imagine simply not being. Enjoy your comforting story if it keeps you from being scared.

Some of us don't scare so easily.


Of course we are moving forward in time. (Hint: Time only moves forward.) But your metaphor is badly flawed. If knowledge is light, then science has shed more light on the world than any God or gods ever imagined by mankind. Thanks to science, even blind people have a chance to see in the dark. That is because science works. God doesn't.

Some believe we can go back in time but not forward.
You missed everything I was getting at.
The *Idea here as KK stated was that God can do anything.
Therefore all things are covered, that blankness that darkness that a skeptical person says happens upon death, or if you choose nothingness you will be aware of it.

As far as science, it’s a great tool to learn how things work, just because a person believes in God doesn't mean we stop learning about how things work I want to know how and what God knows since I believe he created it all I think there fore he is the greatest scientist of all.. To know that is science whether you believe in God or not.

What your missing is your body was conceived your soul was created....

Just because I believe doesn't make me scared of dying on the contrary I am giving you what I know from several experiences I have had, personally I can't hardly wait and am joyfully that it will happen one day.

Trust me on this, on your way to death you will be aware of the darkness, believe it or not.
JfrankA say:

Funny, my reply wasn't about any god, whether it's yours or anyone Else's concept of what a god would be or act. It was a response because it seemed to me that you have made the decision for me that I have decided. And further, being someone who used to believe, I can see from a believer's perspective can make a question and answer it.

Well lets see if I read you right?
JfrankA says:

However, for me personally, removing the beliefs and replacing them with evidence, science and verifiable facts, makes me a better person.

because I do not believe, since there is no evidence to any kind of "after life". So the result is that I am a good person not because I'm afraid of the "dark".

[/quote]

You don’t believe, So I read you right… what’s the problem Frank?
I am not trying to get you to believe in what i do just to think differently about the subject at hand.

I never said to be afraid of the dark I said it’s something that calms you after death.
I am trying to give you a scenario where by God can be righteous when we can’t see it, concerning suffering.
What could be the reason he doesn’t stop the bad that happens to people here and now?
If he did who would know that he did with out God directly telling us and showing us that he did, that would nullify faith and would take away free will from the person he stopped and I am afraid that would nullify all free will.
Why take it away from one and not all?

 

[JFrankA]

You don’t believe, So I read you right… what’s the problem Frank?
I am not trying to get you to believe in what i do just to think differently about the subject at hand.

As I've already stated, I used to be a believer. I have seen the "other side of the coin", so to speak, and earlier in my life, I would have believed that this man had actually went to heaven. or that his soul seen light, or the one of the thousands of different beliefs that thousands of different people believed what might have happened.

But I have learned a lot since then. I can't now "just believe". Belief is not proof. Belief is not solid. I can consider it, but the evidence and the facts just can't support those beliefs. Sorry.

What if somoene said "No, there is no god. But I believe that our souls is really energy from the sun and when we die, our souls go to a nebula and get reincarnated as sun with our own solar system. You should just try 'to think differently about the subject at hand.'"

Would you? I mean, there is real science in this idea, because sun do come from some nebuli. But would that make you think differently about your own beliefs? Would you consider a person who believes this to be right?

As an athiest, I would be asking questions: the first being, simply, Where's the proof?

I never said to be afraid of the dark I said it’s something that calms you after death.
I am trying to give you a scenario where by God can be righteous when we can’t see it, concerning suffering.
What could be the reason he doesn’t stop the bad that happens to people here and now?

Well, let me ask you 'to think differently about the subject at hand.'"

In all you've just stated, consider this simple statement. There is no god. Now there's no reason to ask "why". Bad things happen because they do. No hand directing it, no plan, just is. Some things you can control, some things you can't.

If he did who would know that he did with out God directly telling us and showing us that he did, that would nullify faith and would take away free will from the person he stopped and I am afraid that would nullify all free will.
Why take it away from one and not all?

Why does taking away faith nullify free will? I don't get that at all. Are you telling me that in order to make my own decsions I need a superior being with a plan?

Seems to me that someone who is responsible for her/his own actions, without the belief that a superior being is, at the very least, looking over her/his neck all the time, has free will.

 

[Tricky]

Some believe we can go back in time but not forward.

Some believe that, but they are wrong, according to every piece of evidence ever discovered.

You missed everything I was getting at.
The *Idea here as KK stated was that God can do anything.
Therefore all things are covered, that blankness that darkness that a skeptical person says happens upon death, or if you choose nothingness you will be aware of it.

No, I understood it just fine. It is simply wrong. When you die, you will not be aware of anything, not even "nothingness". Your brain will not work and the brain is required for awareness, according to the overwhelming mass of evidence. I realize that you cannot seem to wrap your brain around "nothingness". You keep talking about it as if it were "something". You are making a strawman of the skeptical position. They do not say "all things are covered by by blackness or darkness upon death." You are putting words into their mouths while trying and failing to understand the skeptical position.

As far as science, it’s a great tool to learn how things work, just because a person believes in God doesn't mean we stop learning about how things work.

It doesn't have to mean that, but for some, when "how things work" conflicts with their concept of God, they stop being scientific. They start to believe without evidence. That is not the way to "find out how things work".

I want to know how and what God knows since I believe he created it all I think there fore he is the greatest scientist of all.. To know that is science whether you believe in God or not.

The concept of God is completely meaningless to science. Even if He did exist, He would not be a part of any truly scientific examination of a topic. No kind of magic is part of science. They are, by definition, irreconcilably incompatible.

What your missing is your body was conceived your soul was created....

What you're missing is any evidence for that statement... or whatever it was. It didn't quite pass the test for being a real sentence. You don't seem to get it, Edge. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true, no matter how hard and how piously you believe it. The only thing that makes something true is evidence.

Just because I believe doesn't make me scared of dying on the contrary I am giving you what I know from several experiences I have had, personally I can't hardly wait and am joyfully that it will happen one day.

That is because you don't believe you will really die. You believe you will live on in some poorly-defined afterlife. Why do you believe this? I think it is because the actual and total unawareness that accompanies real and permanent death scares the pants off of you. If not, why can't you accept it as one possibility? Instead, you have accepted and invented a fairy tale life to replace actual death and you will not, by admission, allow for any other possibility. Oh, I don't blame you. People have been doing this for many centuries and with countless different fairy tales to comfort them. Real death is so scary to you that you cannot begin to accept it as true, in spite of the fact that nobody you know who has died has ever returned in any way that you can give evidence for. There is a mountain of evidence for this, yet you continue to deny it.

Trust me on this, on your way to death you will be aware of the darkness, believe it or not.

Here we go again. It comes down to "Just believe what I say, just because". You're asking me to trust you on this, yet you cannot give me a scrap of evidence to counter the masses of evidence that it is not true. Sorry Edge, I cannot trust you. Oh, you're a nice guy and all, but as a source of reliable information, you are quite simply one of the worst I have ever encountered. And you seem to like it that way.

Enjoy your fairy tales while you live. Once you don't live, you will be unaware of fairy tales and of everything else. That's just how life works. Be brave and face up to it.

 

[Foster Zygote]

No, I understood it just fine. It is simply wrong. When you die, you will not be aware of anything, not even "nothingness". Your brain will not work and the brain is required for awareness, according to the overwhelming mass of evidence. I realize that you cannot seem to wrap your brain around "nothingness". You keep talking about it as if it were "something". You are making a strawman of the skeptical position. They do not say "all things are covered by by blackness or darkness upon death." You are putting words into their mouths while trying and failing to understand the skeptical position.

The simplest was to understand it is to compare it to the "nothingness" that precedes one's birth.

 

[Tricky]

The simplest was to understand it is to compare it to the "nothingness" that precedes one's birth.

I agree. I tried that. Sometimes the simplest is not simple enough for some people.

No they don't. When you die, you simply cease to exist. No light. No darkness. No perception of any kind. Do you remember what it was like before you were conceived? Sort of like that.

What your missing is your body was conceived your soul was created....

 

[Kopji]

I used to think that doctors, medical people, and the police had a special kind of competence: a knowledge of right, wrong, and what was just; and could do almost anything. Ministers mattered, could pray and miracles would sometimes happen.

This story has it all. Amazing how real life can be just like a fairy tale.
:|

 

[Tricky]

This story has it all. Amazing how real life can be just like a fairy tale.
:|

Yes, sometimes it's pretty grimm.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Apparently not. There's been prayers you'd stop posting here for years.

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?

 

[Geezer]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?

What if you are wrong?

 

[Geezer]

Then why won't God heal amputees?

Isn't it obvious, god hates them...bloody useless gimps, How dare they lose his divine limbs!

 

[Lucian]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?

Hmmm, well, if it were "divine appointment," you'd think that a number of people would have been converted by now thanks to your proselytizing.

Everyone who's been saved, raise your hand.

 

[JFrankA]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?

I bet it was neither. Maybe someone mentioned it or referred to it and you just decided to come here. Why does it have to be divine intervention? Why isn't just simply your decision?

Let me put it this way:

What if you saw a reference to this site, (it's not hard to find, links are all over), and you made the decision to come here? Maybe because you were curious, maybe to make a point to atheists, maybe to vent, whatever.

Maybe, just maybe, it was your choice to come here. It's certainly your choice to stay and post more comments.....


ETA:

Everyone who's been saved, raise your hand.

- My hand is down.

 

[Tricky]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?

You think maybe God wanted you to come here to drive people as far away from Christianity as possible? I thought he was supposed to be smart.

 

[joobz]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?

If that was really your calling, you dropped the ball. You should have been more aware of what your holy text actually says. You should be more aware of what your opposition actually says and thinks. You should be more aware of well, most everything regarding the debate.