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Does the traditional atheistic worldview contradict materialism?

Croc411

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First of all: let me apologize for any mistakes I made in grammar or style (English is not my first language).

The traditional atheistic worldview regarding personal identity:
YOU are a distinct person. There might be some (unknown) unique property that constitutes YOU and clearly distinguishes YOU from other people (a mortal "soul"). Either that, or there is a (unknown) threshold in the amount of changes that can be applied to your brain-wiring from one moment to another before you stop existing as a person. Meaning: if your personality/memories were changed enough from one moment to another (e.g. by some outside event), you would simply cease to exist. Your "existence" is now in the same state as it was before you were born and so is your perceived self. Naturally the same happens when you die.

In any case, there is a clear distinction of the subjective personalities between each of the 7 billion humans on earth.

I think this sums up the worldview of most atheists pretty well (Daniel Kolak calls it closed individualism). This was also my personal view until a few years ago, but the more I thought about it the more I came to the conclusion that it is fundamentally flawed. It cannot even explain why we perceive ourselves to be the same person we were 5 years ago without invoking the "soul" concept (contradicting materialism) or something similar, like some equally mysterious "continuity". And of course it gets into serious trouble when it comes to any of the infamous thought experiments involving transporters or twins.

Now to those explanations of self that I consider much more likely:
There is no qualitative difference between the subjective persons of you, me, any other human or even the chimpanzee in the zoo down the street. Only our memories and mindsets discriminate us from each other. No sharp boundaries between persons, no threshold, no continuity issues. Because of that, in a certain sense "you" are (and "I" am) all conscious beings that live, have ever lived or will ever live in all universes that allow for consciousness (but each one with its distinctive memories and personality). This is open individualism in Kolak's terms. It easily explains why you perceive yourself to be the same person that you were 5 years ago: because "you" are all persons in existence anyway (and have always been from the get-go). For the same reason it can cope with the thought experiments mentioned above.

Another way to look at it is empty individualism (no-self theory): the self does not exist at all, it's just an illusion created by the brain. As I understand it though, open and empty individualism are just different but equally valid views on the same model. The consequences regarding perception of self are equivalent. The crucial point shared by both is the lack of a qualitative difference between persons.

None of those thoughts are new, of course. It is a pretty obvious solution to the identity problem - once you get rid of religion and the soul concept. It's simple enough that most people who think a lot about the topic should come to this by themselves at some point (so did I). This is what worries me a little: why do most atheists cling to the traditional view?

Isn't open/empty individualism THE truly materialistic perspective? IMHO it is more conclusive and simpler (though counter-intuitive) than closed individualism and therefore is clearly favoured by Occam's Razor as the default view.

So why does it seem that this worldview is hardly discussed outside of philosophical circles? Is it because debates about identity and existence are so centered on the religion vs. atheism issue? Or is it because the consequences would be so outrageous (subjective immortality for every conscious being by default if the universe is extremely big or infinite or if there is a big enough or infinite multiverse)? Or am I missing something important and there is substantial evidence against it?
 
Having read only the thread title: No.

(I was strangely averse to reading the OP - perhaps it was certain phrases that caught my attention and saved me)
 
Your "existence" is now in the same state as it was before you were born and so is your perceived self...

...we perceive ourselves to be the same person we were 5 years ago...

...why you perceive yourself to be the same person that you were 5 years ago:...

I scarcely recognize the child that had my name. This, I believe, is not due to a faulty memory, but rather very few similarities.

I share a few more things with the adolescent with that same name than I do with that child.

I have little idea what the twenty-something with my name was thinking. He took a rather strange turn and had very different attitudes, beliefs, desires, opinions,...you name it. I struggle to think of more than a few things that we have in common.

In short, none of these people are the me of today. "I" am indeed a very dynamic creature, changing, almost imperceptibly, every instant that I live. These changes accumulate over time (see:Ship of Theseus) and leave virtually nothing of the entity this body once was.

In short, I am not the person I used to be. There is no enduring 'me' to speak of.
 
First of all: let me apologize for any mistakes I made in grammar or style (English is not my first language).

The traditional atheistic worldview regarding personal identity:
YOU are a distinct person. There might be some (unknown) unique property that constitutes YOU and clearly distinguishes YOU from other people (a mortal "soul"). Either that, or there is a (unknown) threshold in the amount of changes that can be applied to your brain-wiring from one moment to another before you stop existing as a person. Meaning: if your personality/memories were changed enough from one moment to another (e.g. by some outside event), you would simply cease to exist. Your "existence" is now in the same state as it was before you were born and so is your perceived self. Naturally the same happens when you die.

In any case, there is a clear distinction of the subjective personalities between each of the 7 billion humans on earth.

I think this sums up the worldview of most atheists pretty well (Daniel Kolak calls it closed individualism). This was also my personal view until a few years ago, but the more I thought about it the more I came to the conclusion that it is fundamentally flawed. It cannot even explain why we perceive ourselves to be the same person we were 5 years ago without invoking the "soul" concept (contradicting materialism) or something similar, like some equally mysterious "continuity". And of course it gets into serious trouble when it comes to any of the infamous thought experiments involving transporters or twins.

Now to those explanations of self that I consider much more likely:
There is no qualitative difference between the subjective persons of you, me, any other human or even the chimpanzee in the zoo down the street. Only our memories and mindsets discriminate us from each other. No sharp boundaries between persons, no threshold, no continuity issues. Because of that, in a certain sense "you" are (and "I" am) all conscious beings that live, have ever lived or will ever live in all universes that allow for consciousness (but each one with its distinctive memories and personality). This is open individualism in Kolak's terms. It easily explains why you perceive yourself to be the same person that you were 5 years ago: because "you" are all persons in existence anyway (and have always been from the get-go). For the same reason it can cope with the thought experiments mentioned above.

Another way to look at it is empty individualism (no-self theory): the self does not exist at all, it's just an illusion created by the brain. As I understand it though, open and empty individualism are just different but equally valid views on the same model. The consequences regarding perception of self are equivalent. The crucial point shared by both is the lack of a qualitative difference between persons.

None of those thoughts are new, of course. It is a pretty obvious solution to the identity problem - once you get rid of religion and the soul concept. It's simple enough that most people who think a lot about the topic should come to this by themselves at some point (so did I). This is what worries me a little: why do most atheists cling to the traditional view?

Isn't open/empty individualism THE truly materialistic perspective? IMHO it is more conclusive and simpler (though counter-intuitive) than closed individualism and therefore is clearly favoured by Occam's Razor as the default view.

So why does it seem that this worldview is hardly discussed outside of philosophical circles? Is it because debates about identity and existence are so centered on the religion vs. atheism issue? Or is it because the consequences would be so outrageous (subjective immortality for every conscious being by default if the universe is extremely big or infinite or if there is a big enough or infinite multiverse)? Or am I missing something important and there is substantial evidence against it?

Neat, first you define atheism then beat the hell out of that definition.

hilited:

I'm not even the same person that got out of bed this morning.
 
Having read only the thread title: No.

(I was strangely averse to reading the OP - perhaps it was certain phrases that caught my attention and saved me)

It was the words "traditional atheist worldview" right?

Summary of OP:

Set up false dichotomy, propose that you have the solution to the problem you just invented.
 
Neat, first you define atheism then beat the hell out of that definition.

hilited:

I'm not even the same person that got out of bed this morning.

**** changes. No ****.

I hope you didn't pay too much to reach this conclusion Croc.
 
How is the idea that "personal identity" and self-awareness being simply an outgrowth of the individual, unconnected, organic, chemically-based dynamic neural net computers that are encased in each of our skulls less materialistic than the idea that "personal identity" is actually an illusion created when a single "person" somehow manages to get itself into each and every one of those aforementioned individual, unconnected, organic, chemically-based dynamic neural net computers that are encased in each of our skulls? Is there even any explanation for how such a thing would even be possible, or what the mechanism behind it would be (much less how that mechanism would work)?

Especially since you invoke Occam's Razor - why do you think open/empty individualism is a more parsimonious explanation, when it not only has to encompass the organic neurochemistry that currently suffices to explain human cognition (since someone's "personal identity" absolutely can be affected by "material" things ranging from increased neurotransmitter levels to large-scale structural damage to the brain), but also this new undetectable mystery mechanism which allows a single "self" to live out billions of entire lifetimes of new and unique experiences (and which therefore requires additional entities and mechanisms to manage the information organization and state-reset functions such a thing would necessarily entail).

Plus, the ideas behind the "individual, unconnected, organic, chemically-based dynamic neural net computer" concept are currently (and rather successfully) used to underpin other, related "materialistic" ideas like those behind neuroscience, artificial intelligence, and cognitive development studies. How is open/empty individualism consistent with any of those things?

How would open/empty individualism even work with those things?
 
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First of all: let me apologize for any mistakes I made in grammar or style (English is not my first language).
Oh boy! This is difficult enough trying to convey to native English speakers!
There might be some (unknown) unique property that constitutes YOU and clearly distinguishes YOU from other people (a mortal "soul").
What distinguishes me from other people is that I experience things that come in through my particular sensory apparatus, have my own set of non-conscious processes that arise into consciousness (everything from intuitions to memories), am capable of controlling my own biological equipment, and have my own thoughts. Furthermore, when I relate to who I used to be, I can relate to things like what I was thinking, what I was aware of, what I was experiencing, and so on.

So there's a pretty clear practical boundary between me and another person that simply has to do with the neural connectivity that is happening between my own ears, and the historical relation to what is currently the lump of matter between my ears.
But this same piece of flesh between our ears experienced things
Yes and no. It's the same piece of flesh in the sense that there's a historical connection of continuity between that piece of flesh and a particular past piece of flesh, but it's not the same piece of flesh in a strict sense. All of our cells constantly metabolize material; repairing, building, and excreting. We're a Ship of TheseusWP in a sense.

ETA: What exactly is the "traditional atheistic worldview" you're talking about, and why is it appropriate to label that thing "traditional atheistic worldview"?
 
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im not the same as i was 5 years ago and i will not be the same next year.
 
nois forme said:
In short, I am not the person I used to be. There is no enduring 'me' to speak of.

tsig said:
I'm not even the same person that got out of bed this morning.

DC said:
im not the same as i was 5 years ago and i will not be the same next year.

Exactly. This is empty individualism. It's also my view and, as I understand it, also the view of Hume and Parfit. We might be on the same side here.

Now, to further clarify my point, let me use an example of the well-known transporter thought experiment:

1. I am asked to enter a transporter that creates an identical copy of myself at another place and then destroys the original. What will I answer? I say (assuming that the technology seems reliable): "Sure, let's go ahead." I guess you guys would do the same.

2. I step out of the transporter and 5 minutes later they tell me that something went wrong. The original was not destroyed. Two identical persons existing is against the law and one has to go. They've thrown a coin and it has picked me. They provide proof of the circumstances to me and then ask me to commit suicide. What will I answer? Again, I say: "Sure, I will only loose 5 minutes of my life. The other guy is still almost exactly me and I am not the same person from one moment to another anyway. So what's the big deal? Bring me my shotgun!" :D

Now, do you still agree with me? What I'm trying to argue in this thread is that someone with a true materialist worldview should answer 'yes' in both cases.
 
Resume said:
I hope you didn't pay too much to reach this conclusion Croc.

Errrrm ... no. Not a single cent. You can find most writings of both contemporary and historical philosophers as pdfs via Google somewhere on the internet. Though I'm not sure how legal it is to download them. :blush:

Anyway, like I posted above: I came to this conclusions on myself - before I started to read about it.
 
Exactly. This is empty individualism. It's also my view and, as I understand it, also the view of Hume and Parfit. We might be on the same side here.

Now, to further clarify my point, let me use an example of the well-known transporter thought experiment:

1. I am asked to enter a transporter that creates an identical copy of myself at another place and then destroys the original. What will I answer? I say (assuming that the technology seems reliable): "Sure, let's go ahead." I guess you guys would do the same.

2. I step out of the transporter and 5 minutes later they tell me that something went wrong. The original was not destroyed. Two identical persons existing is against the law and one has to go. They've thrown a coin and it has picked me. They provide proof of the circumstances to me and then ask me to commit suicide. What will I answer? Again, I say: "Sure, I will only loose 5 minutes of my life. The other guy is still almost exactly me and I am not the same person from one moment to another anyway. So what's the big deal? Bring me my shotgun!" :D

Now, do you still agree with me? What I'm trying to argue in this thread is that someone with a true materialist worldview should answer 'yes' in both cases.

the copy will not be me, so my answer is no.
 
Welcome to the JREF
First of all: let me apologize for any mistakes I made in grammar or style (English is not my first language).

The traditional atheistic worldview regarding personal identity:
YOU are a distinct person.
No atheism is the premise that there is no god. Sorry.
There might be some (unknown) unique property that constitutes YOU and clearly distinguishes YOU from other people (a mortal "soul").
No it is called a body, there is no should under the current modern usage of body.
A biological organism in the three d world of reality. It is unique because objects can not occupy the same space and have a contingent history.
Either that, or there is a (unknown) threshold in the amount of changes that can be applied to your brain-wiring from one moment to another before you stop existing as a person. Meaning: if your personality/memories were changed enough from one moment to another (e.g. by some outside event), you would simply cease to exist.
Not exactly, the brain functions of memory create the sense of continuity, but the physical body has parts that take years to turn over, so there is some persistence of the organism.
Your "existence" is now in the same state as it was before you were born and so is your perceived self. Naturally the same happens when you die.
Now the body is still there, processes in the brain that we refer to by labels like 'memory' and 'sense of self' , they may have changed.
In any case, there is a clear distinction of the subjective personalities between each of the 7 billion humans on earth.
yes and no, each one has a unique physical body through contingent history.
I think this sums up the worldview of most atheists pretty well
No atheism is the idea that god does note xist.

So you seem to be over generalizing and conflating here.
(Daniel Kolak calls it closed individualism). This was also my personal view until a few years ago, but the more I thought about it the more I came to the conclusion that it is fundamentally flawed. It cannot even explain why we perceive ourselves to be the same person we were 5 years ago without invoking the "soul" concept (contradicting materialism) or something similar
That is because you have not considered that memory creates the illusion of persistence of self. A person with alzheimers is still that physical body through history. they do not however create new memories.
like some equally mysterious "continuity". And of course it gets into serious trouble when it comes to any of the infamous thought experiments involving transporters or twins.
Not really. Bodies is bodies and have contingent history.
Now to those explanations of self that I consider much more likely:
There is no qualitative difference between the subjective persons of you, me, any other human or even the chimpanzee in the zoo down the street.
Well that is wrong, the molecules and atoms are different, history of those atoms are different...etc...
Only our memories and mindsets discriminate us from each other.
Nope, you are confusing things here, you are not a chimp. Taht is becasue teh organic body that hoses the processes of 'you', is not classifed as a chimp. You can not occupy teh same space as a chimp ... etc...
No sharp boundaries between persons,
Really? So do you sit on chairs or not?or do you fall through them and tehe art and orbit the center of gravity in the earth?
no threshold, no continuity issues. Because of that, in a certain sense "you" are (and "I" am) all conscious beings that live, have ever lived or will ever live in all universes that allow for consciousness (but each one with its distinctive memories and personality). This is open individualism in Kolak's terms.
This is teh philosophy forum, but that is till just silly.
And has nothing to do with atheism.
It easily explains why you perceive yourself to be the same person that you were 5 years ago: because "you" are all persons in existence anyway (and have always been from the get-go). For the same reason it can cope with the thought experiments mentioned above.
Nope we can damage your brain or give it ECT and you will not have those memories.

Ockhams razor. There is no evidence of open individuals.
Another way to look at it is empty individualism (no-self theory): the self does not exist at all, it's just an illusion created by the brain.
Yup that is what the Alleged Historic Buddha taught 2,500 years ago.
There is a body, that is the self.
As I understand it though, open and empty individualism are just different but equally valid views on the same model. The consequences regarding perception of self are equivalent. The crucial point shared by both is the lack of a qualitative difference between persons.
Nope the contingent history of bodies is real and open individualism has no evidence.
None of those thoughts are new, of course. It is a pretty obvious solution to the identity problem - once you get rid of religion and the soul concept. It's simple enough that most people who think a lot about the topic should come to this by themselves at some point (so did I). This is what worries me a little: why do most atheists cling to the traditional view?
For the same reason I don't think Harry Potter will become the Queen of England.
Isn't open/empty individualism THE truly materialistic perspective? IMHO it is more conclusive and simpler (though counter-intuitive) than closed individualism and therefore is clearly favoured by Occam's Razor as the default view.

So why does it seem that this worldview is hardly discussed outside of philosophical circles?
Because it contradicts the available evidence?
Is it because debates about identity and existence are so centered on the religion vs. atheism issue? Or is it because the consequences would be so outrageous (subjective immortality for every conscious being by default if the universe is extremely big or infinite or if there is a big enough or infinite multiverse)? Or am I missing something important and there is substantial evidence against it?
Yup, you are missing that crucial thing called evidence.
 
Exactly. This is empty individualism. It's also my view and, as I understand it, also the view of Hume and Parfit. We might be on the same side here.

Now, to further clarify my point, let me use an example of the well-known transporter thought experiment:

1. I am asked to enter a transporter that creates an identical copy of myself at another place and then destroys the original. What will I answer? I say (assuming that the technology seems reliable): "Sure, let's go ahead." I guess you guys would do the same.
No, I will use conventional transportation, the translation is likely to by terribly painful. The QM effects will shock the hell out of of your body.
2. I step out of the transporter and 5 minutes later they tell me that something went wrong. The original was not destroyed. Two identical persons existing is against the law and one has to go.
They are not identical, they separate coordinates and contingent histories.
They've thrown a coin and it has picked me. They provide proof of the circumstances to me and then ask me to commit suicide. What will I answer? Again, I say: "Sure, I will only loose 5 minutes of my life. The other guy is still almost exactly me and I am not the same person from one moment to another anyway. So what's the big deal? Bring me my shotgun!" :D
Um sure, strawman much?
Now, do you still agree with me? What I'm trying to argue in this thread is that someone with a true materialist worldview should answer 'yes' in both cases.

Ah, so it is a strawman, I am disappointed, but I will not meet your expectations.

So someone who believes in open individuality is more likely to kill themselves. The materialist still feels that they are both bodies, in the perceptions of the two. Duh.

I am very disappointed to see the same old tried and true strawmen dance across the stage again.
 
Errrrm ... no. Not a single cent. You can find most writings of both contemporary and historical philosophers as pdfs via Google somewhere on the internet. Though I'm not sure how legal it is to download them. :blush:

Anyway, like I posted above: I came to this conclusions on myself - before I started to read about it.

You mean your erroneous conclusions about atheists and materialists?
 
ANTPogo said:
How is the idea that "personal identity" and self-awareness being simply an outgrowth of the individual, unconnected, organic, chemically-based dynamic neural net computers that are encased in each of our skulls less materialistic than the idea that "personal identity" is actually an illusion created when a single "person" somehow manages to get itself into each and every one of those aforementioned individual, unconnected, organic, chemically-based dynamic neural net computers that are encased in each of our skulls?

The word 'individual' is the culprit here, when 'individual' is meant in respect to the subjective perception.

ANTPogo said:
Is there even any explanation for how such a thing would even be possible, or what the mechanism behind it would be (much less how that mechanism would work)?

There is no mechanism required at all. It's just how things are. Consciousness is consciousness is consciousness. The crucial point is: there is no qualitative difference between individual persons, only memories and personality discern us from each other. Materialism then dictates that this also applies to the subjective perception.

ANTPogo said:
Especially since you invoke Occam's Razor - why do you think open/empty individualism is a more parsimonious explanation ...

Because it doesn't require some mysterious "continuity", neither does it require some "soul" concept ("soul" not in the religious sense, what I mean here is: a unique property of every individual, that cannot ever be reproduced, neither in this universe nor in any other that might exist. This is why I called it 'mortal soul' concept in the OP. A totally ridiculous concept for any materialist, isn't it?).

ANTPogo said:
... when it not only has to encompass the organic neurochemistry that currently suffices to explain human cognition (since someone's "personal identity" absolutely can be affected by "material" things ranging from increased neurotransmitter levels to large-scale structural damage to the brain) ...

Of course it can be affected, yes. I don't see how this has any bearing on the clear-distinction-between-persons vs. no-clear-distinction-between-persons issue though.

ANTPogo said:
... but also this new undetectable mystery mechanism which allows a single "self" to live out billions of entire lifetimes of new and unique experiences (and which therefore requires additional entities and mechanisms to manage the information organization and state-reset functions such a thing would necessarily entail).

Again, this is not new and there is no mechanism required. It is just as undetectable as what I called 'the traditional atheistic worldview' in the OP. That's the reason why this is mostly a philosophy topic, not a scientific one, you agree? As for the "billions of entire lifetimes": they are isolated from each other by fundamental design, so why not?

ANTPogo said:
Plus, the ideas behind the "individual, unconnected, organic, chemically-based dynamic neural net computer" concept are currently (and rather successfully) used to underpin other, related "materialistic" ideas like those behind neuroscience, artificial intelligence, and cognitive development studies. How is open/empty individualism consistent with any of those things?

How would open/empty individualism even work with those things?

I do not argue against materialism, not at all. I call myself a 100% atheist and materialist. What I do argue against is that both Locke's "continuity of consciousness" or the "mortal soul" concept mentioned above go together in any way with a materialistic worldview. They do not.

Kolak in his book "Who Am I?" has examined the consistency of open individualism with the things you mentioned. He did not find any inconsistencies, though I have to admit that I didn't read the respective chapters completely.
 
1. I am asked to enter a transporter that creates an identical copy of myself at another place and then destroys the original. What will I answer? I say (assuming that the technology seems reliable): "Sure, let's go ahead." I guess you guys would do the same.
My confidence in the transporter is equivalent to my confidence that it will create an identical copy. It wouldn't merely depend on the principle either--I would want to be sure the implementation worked. So I wouldn't be the first volunteer, but I'd have no problems stepping into it if it were established technology.
2. I step out of the transporter and 5 minutes later they tell me that something went wrong. The original was not destroyed. Two identical persons existing is against the law and one has to go. They've thrown a coin and it has picked me.
This is ambiguous. See below.
They provide proof of the circumstances to me and then ask me to commit suicide. What will I answer? Again, I say: "Sure, I will only loose 5 minutes of my life. The other guy is still almost exactly me and I am not the same person from one moment to another anyway. So what's the big deal? Bring me my shotgun!" :D
No. In this case, the law is irrelevant to me. I would object to destroying myself. It would be a big deal to me. And again, this is ambiguous, but it applies just the same no matter which copy you ask.

When you make a copy, there really are two copies. I really don't care if I'm classified a materialist or not, but I don't think a materialist would disagree.
 
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yy2bggggs said:
Oh boy! This is difficult enough trying to convey to native English speakers!

Don't worry. I understand what you post (at least on the semantical level :D). The trouble I have is how to formulate my thoughts coherently in English.

yy2bggggs said:
ETA: What exactly is the "traditional atheistic worldview" you're talking about, and why is it appropriate to label that thing "traditional atheistic worldview"?

I concur now that it is awkwardly formulated. What I mean is the worldview that most people that consider themselves atheist and materialist (like I do) seem to share regarding personal identity and what happens when you die.

From my experience, this is either:
a) a variation of Locke's continuity of consciousness argument or
b) what I labelled "mortal soul" concept (for a definition please see my reply to ANTPogo above)

I called it "traditional atheistic worldview" for a lack of a better term. "Closed individualism" is not widely used in discussion and I don't know of any other term. If you know a better one, please share.
 
Short answer, no.

Slightly longer answer; All materialists are atheists, not all atheists are materialists, some are crackpots.
 

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