Does the soul exist?

[Radrook]

Let's say, hypothetically, that someone told a bald faced lie in defense of someone else's lie that he'd presented as support for one of his claims. Let's say that the lie was pathetically clumsy and easily exposed, as well as unnecessary because said person could have simply admitted that what he'd thought to be supporting evidence actually lacked legitimacy. But instead he chose to lie about the reason for the inaccuracies of the presented evidence, even appearing to imply that he was the original source of the information. In such an hypothetical situation, would it be legitimate to question the integrity of said individual? Would a failure on his part to even acknowledge the lie smack of intellectual cowardice?

Assuming all the accusations as expressed above are true, then the the conclusions you reach would be reasonable ones. Conversely-if the accusations are untrue-then the conclusions you reached would be valid but false.

 

[Radrook]

....

Radrook is right, not all your queries/answers need responses. How ya doing Brother Rad?

Ok brother Edge. Glad to see your stiill fighting the good fight for the faith!


Addendum:

As Christians, we perceive scriptural evidence in support of statements as lending them legitimacy and authority. So by default the quotations should be understood as intended for those who perceive them in that Christian way. It's similar to quoting from the USA Constitution when the subject is human rights under the USA democracy. A perfectly acceptable method from the viewpoint of those considering the USA Consitution as the ultimate authority. Quote it to Castro and it might be totally irrelevant in relation to his preferred communist world view.

 

[Perpetual Seeker]

As Christians, we perceive scriptural evidence in support of statements as lending them legitimacy and authority. So by default the quotations should be understood as intended for those who perceive them in that Christian way. It's similar to quoting from the USA Constitution when the subject is human rights under the USA democracy. A perfectly acceptable method from the viewpoint of those considering the USA Consitution as the ultimate authority. Quote it to Castro and it might be totally irrelevant in relation to his preferred communist world view.

That's fine, but the majority of us are not Christians, so the "evidence" doesn't stand.

 

[edge]

Did you miss the part where Radrook pointed out that your religion does NOT feature an eternal soul?

No, I know what Radrook believes. We merely disagree on one point, or two.
Any proof I could give you... and I have, no amount will suffice for you.

 

[John Freestone]

Well that's a nice rant John freestone, but I see Jesus working in my life and that proves by the gospels to me that it is as correct as can be…. and especially about our eternal souls.

Yeah, it was a bit of a rant, wasn't it. Ok. I'll calm down now and ask if you would be so kind as to what in your own life you see as Jesus working there? All that gets my back up is when people don't explain their reasons for their belief. Of course, I realise that it's not your duty to 'show your working out' if you don't want to, but without it, you can't expect anyone who hasn't seen the blessing of Jesus Christ in his life to get it.

To have the written word acknowledged in my life by his works today in my life synchs it for and myself and that’s how that works also for other believers too.

However, there are other explanations for experiences that appear to be acknowledgement of the written word. I don't suppose you'd accept them if I put them to you. Would you like me to try?

Radrook is right, not all your queries/answers need responses. How ya doing Brother Rad?

No question needs a response, as far as I'm concerned, but failing to answer them in discussions tends to demonstrate some kind of fear, sometimes of recognising that our own answers are ridiculous, sometimes that others will mock them even though we believe our answers through and through.

And furthermore:
As a skeptic you’ll never know for sure till the end.

I don't think you have thought about this (or anything, probably) from the alternative perspective. If God doesn't exist, neither of us will know at the end either. Presumably our consciousness will stop, something like falling into a deep sleep. You told me to use my imagination before. You should try it. Try taking on different beliefs as thought experiments, just to see how they feel and whether they have anything to teach you. That is a good way of maturing in your understanding of life.

If pointing out what is written about our eternal soul in my religion bothers you, then you need look inside yourself and truly know why.

But I think I truly know why already. It makes me sad to see so many people still, as it seems to me, living under the spell of ancient religions (and modern superstitions too). I imagine that you, believing in God, feel sad for atheists for not having seen the light. It's just like that. I want people to see the light. The light just means different things to us.

So for me what is written about or quoted from Jesus is proven every day and that makes it true.

I can understand that you and other people think that, but I can demonstrate fairly clearly how it can appear to be so without necessarily being so. People who believe in anything tend to see evidence for that belief in their lives. If you had been brought up by devil worshippers, you might well see the influence of the devil in your life proved every day. If you immersed yourself in scientific study for a while, you might begin to see its principles of material cause and effect and probability at play in your life. Now, the question is, how do you know what is true? You see, if you keep having experiences and saying to yourself "That was the work of God in my life", you are not dealing with repeated proof, just affirmation of prejudice. One of the problems with a lot of religions, of course, including yours, is that they teach you not to test the reality of their claims. It is a virtue to have faith, and blessed are the people who don't bother to question or answer questions.

 

[Radrook]

Originally Posted by Civilized Worm
Did you miss the part where Radrook pointed out that your religion does NOT feature an eternal soul?

We are in agreement on the essential salvational issue of Christ's Ransom sacrifice for forgiveness of sin and that makes us Christians and brothers in the faith. Neither are our views as different as yoiu would make them seem. We both believe in a ressurection and that the ressurection can lead to a heavenly life for some if they place their faith in Christ as savior.


John 3:14-16

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So it's the minor non-salvational details that are involved. Nothing that prevents a general unifying Christian viewpoint about what ultimately happens after death. Slight differences which we are assured be removed during the restoration of all things as promised in[Should I dare to say?] the scriptures.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea

 

[gdnp]

We are in agreement on the essential salvational issue of Christ's Ransom sacrifice for forgiveness of sin and that makes us Christians and brothers in the faith. Neither are our views as different as yoiu would make them seem. We both believe in a ressurection and that the ressurection can lead to a heavenly life.

So it's the minor non-salvational details that are involved. Nothing that prevents a general unifying Christian viewpoint about what ultimately happens after death. slight differencees which will be removed in the restoration of all things as promised in[Should I dare to say?] the scriptures.

IIRC there are some major doctrinal controversies over how many souls will go to heaven. I have heard 144K total.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Not particularly good odds.

 

[Perpetual Seeker]

IIRC there are some major doctrinal controversies over how many souls will go to heaven. I have heard 144K total.



Not particularly good odds.

Those who believe that also believe the rest will be resurrected on earth and live in some new paradise.

 

[Radrook]

IIRC there are some major doctrinal controversies over how many souls will go to heaven. I have heard 144K total. Not particularly good odds.

But that's as nonsalvational issue and your belief one way or the other will not make or break you as a Christian. Furthermore, the heavenly hope isn't the only one spoken about in the Bible. As the scripture I quoted in Habacuc points out-the EARTH will be filled with the knowledge of God which is a fulfillment of what "Jesus requested when he prayed "Your will be done in heaven and on earth!"

Isaiah mentioned this promised new earth:

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

As did the psalmist David:

Psalm 37:11
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

As also did the Apostle Peter:

[2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So did the Apostle John

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;....


So the odds aren't just dependent on the heavenly resurrection. Actually, the odds are pretty good since all those who never heard the Gospel are to be provided with an opportunity to accept or reject it. So the chances for life are in the person's hands via his choices.

BTW
This is intended for those who consider scriptural quotations as
lending authority to Christian beliefs. It is not intended for those who are atheists, or any non-Christian religion. Neither is it a challenge to debate for those who are Christians but disagree. Debating such issues is divisive and irrelevant to salvation. Neither is it comely to do so in front of unbelievers.

 

[Civilized Worm]

No, I know what Radrook believes. We merely disagree on one point, or two.
Any proof I could give you... and I have, no amount will suffice for you.

Proof of what? A soul? You haven't given me any!

 

[edge]

I can understand that you and other people think that, but I can demonstrate fairly clearly how it can appear to be so without necessarily being so. People who believe in anything tend to see evidence for that belief in their lives. If you had been brought up by devil worshippers, you might well see the influence of the devil in your life proved every day. If you immersed yourself in scientific study for a while, you might begin to see its principles of material cause and effect and probability at play in your life. Now, the question is, how do you know what is true? You see, if you keep having experiences and saying to yourself "That was the work of God in my life", you are not dealing with repeated proof, just affirmation of prejudice. One of the problems with a lot of religions, of course, including yours, is that they teach you not to test the reality of their claims. It is a virtue to have faith, and blessed are the people who don't bother to question or answer questions.

Everything you said here is exactly the opposite of what the scriptures teaches.

Sure you can demonstrate that by using false teachings like, staring at the sun to see the Virgin Mary next to it.
The worship of the mother of Jesus is wrong; to acknowledge she had a great part in the plan of God is acceptance in the plan of salvation, that’s ok.

The true mother of Jesus wouldn’t blind people for a look at her majesty.
So we are left with the question of what is it they were to see and who is it that deceived those that went blind, I know but you don’t, but obviously something was there in the sky that day and was speaking through some one or all either in their minds or directly or directly through some speaker.

People who believe and are Christians see the influence of the devil in their lives as he is after the ones that have been saved; to make them fall, he is after the ones that haven’t heard the word and this is important, he has no need to show but to hide himself from the ones that reject because they are fallen already and are his.
So we see proofs of both principalities.

One of the problems with a lot of religions, of course, including yours, is that they teach you not to test the reality of their claims.

That is a false statement it teaches us to test the spirits and says so.

It is a virtue to have faith, and blessed are the people who don't bother to question or answer questions.

This is so wrong, all questions, will be answered. It is a virtue to have faith.

Blessed is he who persecuted in righteousness sake, for yours is the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is within you.

I don’t know if you will get all that I pasted on here and it covers more than the OP asks, but it covers many things including the reasons for the new covenant.
Your eyes see but your heart doesn’t receive.

 

[edge]

So lets see if you have fear to understand this, if you do skip it because I am going to cover much.

Walking in the light
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
This is what you are basically doing, is it not?

This is what he warned us about.

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

The will of God is to minister the word to the world and to love one another.
So if we don't have soul how would you live forever?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

From John:

I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

So how could they get this wrong?

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,
we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.



He said to them, "Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don't you put it on its stand?
For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open.
If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."

The will of God is to minister the word to the world.
Next:
Here he’s taking about the established beliefs of the Pharisees and the rules of the O.T. that they followed..

" 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.
You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.'
For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
This is where he states that all food is clean and the rules that men made up are made up He came because we couldn’t follow the ten commandments not all the other rules the O.T. has in there, the addendums to the ten commandments.

Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"
"What did Moses command you?" he replied.
They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied.

Other Spirits,

When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."
The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, "He's dead." But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.
After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
He replied, "This kind can come out only by prayer."

So what is it about evil spirits they are entities that go against Gods will.
They attack human spirits and the body.
Seems like the reason is, that they have no body and want to experience what it’s like while corrupting the body and soul/spirit of humans.
So why would these spirits act in this manner other than they have been condemned and have no redemption?
These entities are at work today in you and they attack us all.
Since the word of truth is made clear to us now they are acting in a more subtle ways now, but not always.
This is all to keep you where you are at today in your beliefs.
There is only one truth, be true to God.

Civilized Worm says:

Proof of what? A soul? You haven't given me any!

Yes I have but you (skeptics) rejected it. I wrote a post about it and presented the evidence. If you are looking for a soul/ spirit that you can hold in your hand well then you are out of luck.

The kingdom of God is within you. What is surprising is you think so little of yourself.

 

[Civilized Worm]

Yes I have but you (skeptics) rejected it. I wrote a post about it and presented the evidence. If you are looking for a soul/ spirit that you can hold in your hand well then you are out of luck.

All you did was quote the Bible. Would you accept quotations from the Qu'ran to prove that Muhammad split the moon in two?

 

[edge]

We are talking about the soul and what is known, not the moon.

I have no need to accept quotations from the Qu'ran since it denies Jesus.

If it does that then it goes against what I know to be true for whatever reasons, but at least they worship one God so they do well.
Something is better than nothing.
I'm not just quoting so don't even say that.
If you need more explaining point it out and I will try to elaborate.

 

[Civilized Worm]

What have you done besides quote the Bible? Oh that's right, you refered to NDEs. Is that the best you've got?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Assuming all the accusations as expressed above are true, then the the conclusions you reach would be reasonable ones. Conversely-if the accusations are untrue-then the conclusions you reached would be valid but false.

Oh, the accusations are true all right. In our hypothetical situation the lie is unambiguous and painfully, clumsily obvious and inept. In fact it's recorded for all to see with the simple click of a mouse.

So we are in agreement that this hypothetical liar would have shown himself to be lacking in integrity?

 

[Foster Zygote]

I never used anything of yours Foster Zygote, as a signature.

I guess I was mistaken.

Well that's a nice rant John freestone, but I see Jesus working in my life and that proves by the gospels to me that it is as correct as can be…. and especially about our eternal souls.

But what about the people of other religions who testify that they see their gods working in their lives?

To have the written word acknowledged in my life by his works today in my life synchs it for and myself and that’s how that works also for other believers too.

Yes, that's exactly how it works for believers of pretty much any religion. Even those that you are convinced are false.

Radrook is right, not all your queries/answers need responses.

It's funny how often you seem to ignore points that are most damaging to your position or most difficult to answer without admitting error.

And furthermore:
As a skeptic you’ll never know for sure till the end.

Neither will you. Can you give us any evidence that Mohamed was not the final prophet of God? Can you give us any evidence that your beliefs are any more true than those of the Mormons?

If pointing out what is written about our eternal soul in my religion bothers you, then you need look inside yourself and truly know why.

I think what most people want to know is why we should accept those writings as any more valid than the writings of any other religious books from around the world throughout history.

So for me what is written about or quoted from Jesus is proven every day and that makes it true.

Which is exactly the sort of thing that people who have belief systems contradicting yours say all the time. Just replace "Jesus" with "Mohamed", "L. Ron Hubbard" or "Oprah".

 

[Radrook]

That's fine, but the majority of us are not Christians, so the "evidence" doesn't stand.

That the biblical evidence doesn't stand for non-Christians and the godless is to be expected.

 

[Radrook]

Oh, the accusations are true all right. In our hypothetical situation the lie is unambiguous and painfully, clumsily obvious and inept. In fact it's recorded for all to see with the simple click of a mouse.

So we are in agreement that this hypothetical liar would have shown himself to be lacking in integrity?

I would have to admit that a lie is being told. However, delving into motives based on the evidence you have provided in order to determine malicious intent is another matter.

Please note that ineptness, clumsiness, and ambiguity are premises which do not in themselves justify a conclusion of lack of integrity. In order for that to be true the person must be lying knowingly and maliciously. The explanation being recorded for all to see-for example-doesn't necessarily mean that the liar has seen it or perceives it as we might perceive it. If indeed he perceives it as erroneous, then though he might be untrue his integrity remains intact. In short, your hypothetical doesn't provide sufficient grounds for accurately evaluation of the person's motives and reaching accurate conclusions about his character.

 

[Miss_Kitt]

I have recently come to the conclusion that consciousness is an aspect of what our brain does--just as growth and change is an aspect of living things. That is, we don't "make" our consciousness, it just is because the way human brains work makes that both possible and necessary. Only a damaged brain would not have some level of consciousness. It used to bother me to think that my Self, my "soul", was just something held in the activity in my brain--but as I learn more about the brain, I realize that there's no "just" to it. The brain is amazingly complex, and it's developing and changing with my thoughts and actions! Just think, new synaptic connections are forming as I reflect on how to write this post...

ETA: I don't believe there is any immaterial soul that exists outside of the functioning of my brain. But I do believe that there is an individual, unique essense that is "me" and which is more than just reactions to my environment by my heredity. There is choice involved, and we can either make choices and think in ways that permit us to have more choices, more freedom--or we can opt not to think, not to reflect, not to choose but only to react, and that limits our choices. I'm not speaking figuratively, here, I mean that we can either make our brains more complex, and connect stored data to more different "tags" for retrieval, or we can limit ourselves to just one tag and just one route to that information. The more you cross-connect your knowledge, the more you use what you have already learned. This is supported by recent fMRI studies of memory and cognition.

My personal immortality is in the memories I leave in the lives of those who knew me; and if I'm extremely persistant and a little lucky, in the writing I have published that may be read long after my death. I'm perfectly okay with that.