Does the soul exist?

[jimtron]

It is spoken of as having blood, feeling hunger, killed by the sword.

These things are real. It that's what a soul is, then I believe in a soul. Also if you define soul as personality, legacy, impact, etc.

 

[Moochie]

Wasn't Charlie Manson referred to as "the soul"?


M.

 

[-Fran-]

I used to think that 'soul' more or less meant your personality, your mind, consciosuness and thoughts... things like that. I believed in a soul = that which make you you and not anyone else. But when I realized that that is not usually what is meant by a 'soul' I also realized that I don't believe in it at all. There seems to be nothing that supports the idea that there would be a supernatural part of you that will live on after your physical body has expired.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There is no evidence of a soul and no physiological explanation to even hypothesize one.

But I fantasize about the possibility of living long enough to see the medical breakthroughs that will extend our lives by centuries or longer. And sometimes I contemplate some sort of quantum existence that allows one to exist after death in an all new version of the Universe.

Both of those fantasies are sufficient to counter the negative issues of not existing in the future.

And then there is the satisfaction I have that I have extended my existence through having a child. My consciousness may not be along for the ride. But then when I contemplate that quantum existence I can suspend the need for a consciousness as well and just consider the fact that our 'matter' will always exist even if in different forms. Does it matter if a single cell in your body dies? No, the remaining parts carry on quite nicely. So if we die the remaining human collective or whichever larger 'unit' you wish to consider you are a part of carries on as well.

 

[Radrook]

These things are real. It that's what a soul is, then I believe in a soul. Also if you define soul as personality, legacy, impact, etc.

Here is an article that explains it in more detail:


The Bible Meaning of "Soul": AN ANIMAL LIFE OR BODY SUBJECT TO DEATH ...
An Animal Life or Body Subject to Death -- Not Immortal ... In the Old Testament Hebrew, the original word for soul is nephesh. ...

http://www.antipas.org/books/soul/soul_1.html

 

[Piggy]

For those who used to believe in such, how did you come to think that there is no soul?

I don't know if I ever really believed, but the straw was a thought experiment I came up with one time. I wondered, what if you removed the left half of my brain and the left half of someone else's brain, switched them, then wired everything back up again with them switched like that.

Who would have the soul?

There was no answer.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Such phenomena as doors opening and shutting? Everything you mention in the quote above could have simple, natural explanations. Also, it's well known that sometimes people think dreams really happened, or remember details wrong, or have hallucinations (without drugs--this isn't uncommon, and Carl Sagan talks about it in Demon Haunted World). And why is a door opening and closing apparently on its own, sign of ghosts or a "haunting"? Maybe it's Satan, or Jesus, or an alien from another galaxy, or a paranormal event that we are unfamiliar with? Not to mention the many natural causes that could be at work. It's interesting how something strange happens in a house, and some people are certain it's a ghost. All we know about ghosts is from fiction--movies, TV shows, books. We don't have any actual scientific knowledge of ghosts. So when a light goes off on its own, people tend to think of similar situations from movies.

Isn't it extraordinary that 99% of ghost/alien sightings occur at night, in the dark, when you are on the verge of sleep? You never, say, get your dead grandmother leaning over your lunchtime cup of coffee.

 

[Bikewer]

1. No evidence. All of the supposed evidence put forth is better explained by other things.

2. Strong evidence of "wishful thinking", supported by well-known psychological phenomenon that would have been understood differently by our ancestors.

3. Strong evidence that consciousness is the product of the biochemical activity of the human brain, and nothing else. Alter the brain and it's chemistry, and consciousness alters.
4. No presentation of any model that would explain how consciousness could be supported without a brain.

etc....

 

[Perpetual Seeker]

Sure the soul exists. But it's not the soul as understood by Christendom.

We're not really concerned with Christendom here. I have not believed in any ideologies taught therein for a long time. But, I am talking about the common idea of the soul, as believed by many different religions and belief systems.

I certainly hope there is a soul. I would like to think that humans (and all living creatures) are somehow more than the sum of their parts, that we are more than just organic machinery. Unfortunately, I don't know, and I can't say I've seen any evidence that there is something that could be called a soul. I don't firmly disbelieve in the possibility of a 'soul', but I would say that the concept is probably a manifestation of wishful thinking.

I have yet to experience a haunting for myself, and the second hand reports of them are usually pretty sketchy. Not to say that it is impossible, but I think there are far more likely scenarios for most haunting cases, and once someone gets the idea that a place is haunted, they start looking for whatever can be construed as spooky and paying extreme attention to it. In fact I would be willing to bet that you could take any random place, make up a chilling history for it, tell people it is haunted, let them stay the night, and many people would come back with stories confirming just how haunted the place is.

I agree with you. I wish there was, but can't see any evidence for it.

When one suffers a brain injury, ones personality takes a radical shift in presentation. When a man had a major section of his brain blown off by a shard of dynamite, he turned from the pleasant, affable man he was into an angry, bitter bastard.

The soul is often seen as the culprit behind love. However, people who suffer brain injuries often forget their families, fall out of love with their wives, do not love what they used to love.

If the soul exists, it is utterly superflous. So I'd say no, the soul does not exist.

Agreed. I remember in a psychology class, we discussed a man who had a rod stuck through his frontal lobe in some accident, and totally lost his personality.

Most people, when asked, identify their consciousness as being about an inch behind their eyes, coresponding to an area of the pre-frontal cortex.

Interesting. I can't say I've thought of it like that. I can see it perhaps being somewhere about in the center, perhaps closer to the front, but I can't really do better than that.

Such phenomena as doors opening and shutting? Everything you mention in the quote above could have simple, natural explanations. Also, it's well known that sometimes people think dreams really happened, or remember details wrong, or have hallucinations (without drugs--this isn't uncommon, and Carl Sagan talks about it in Demon Haunted World). And why is a door opening and closing apparently on its own, sign of ghosts or a "haunting"? Maybe it's Satan, or Jesus, or an alien from another galaxy, or a paranormal event that we are unfamiliar with? Not to mention the many natural causes that could be at work. It's interesting how something strange happens in a house, and some people are certain it's a ghost. All we know about ghosts is from fiction--movies, TV shows, books. We don't have any actual scientific knowledge of ghosts. So when a light goes off on its own, people tend to think of similar situations from movies.

Quite true. The point of memory not being very reliable is definitely true. I remember reading a thread here that talked about supposedly predictive dreams, which said that such things can be remembered quite incorrectly, details added, etc.

The word translated "soul" in the OT is "nephesh". It is spoken of as having blood, feeling hunger, killed by the sword. In fact, it is used in Genesis in reference to animals. It also is used to refer to a person's future life. So obviously the word "nephesh as understood originally meant the person himself, his present, past and future life. In fact, that's they way it's used in the NT as well. So when viewed from that biblical perspective, the soul is the creature and the creature is the soul and definitely does exist when in existence.

What you are referring to is the Platonic idea of the soul as being immortal and apart from the physical body. For that unbiblical "soul" concept there is absolutely no evidence.

BTW
To verify this look up the word "soul" in a ancient Hebrew language lexicon and see for yourself.

I am well aware. I used to be a Jehovah's Witness actually, and they taught this very idea. But nevertheless, that's not the common idea of a soul, which is what we're discussing here. Further, I don't believe in anything the Bible says, so it doesn't really matter to me.

But I fantasize about the possibility of living long enough to see the medical breakthroughs that will extend our lives by centuries or longer. And sometimes I contemplate some sort of quantum existence that allows one to exist after death in an all new version of the Universe.

Both of those fantasies are sufficient to counter the negative issues of not existing in the future.

And then there is the satisfaction I have that I have extended my existence through having a child. My consciousness may not be along for the ride. But then when I contemplate that quantum existence I can suspend the need for a consciousness as well and just consider the fact that our 'matter' will always exist even if in different forms. Does it matter if a single cell in your body dies? No, the remaining parts carry on quite nicely. So if we die the remaining human collective or whichever larger 'unit' you wish to consider you are a part of carries on as well.

Agreed. I wouldn't mind something like this in the future. Some of it probably isn't very unrealistic.

Isn't it extraordinary that 99% of ghost/alien sightings occur at night, in the dark, when you are on the verge of sleep? You never, say, get your dead grandmother leaning over your lunchtime cup of coffee.

I was just thinking exactly that. I guess people are more likely to imagine things at night because they can't see as well what is around them, so they have more of a tendency to make up things.

 

[Brian-M]

Personally, I consider the soul as a primitive concept of mind. I expect that when someone died, people would wonder what happened to the part of them which made them move, speak, etc, much like a small child might wonder where the music goes when the radio is turned off.

As for the part of the brain that created consciousness, not all aspects of the mind are localized, it's likely that consciousness is one of those global functions performed by the brain as a whole.

It's my opinion that consciousness is a type of feedback loop which allows a creature to develop an understanding of, and thereby modify their own behavior. From this perspective, dogs and cats could clearly be regarded as conscious, but ants and mollusks would not.

 

[Mercutio]

Personally, I consider the soul as a primitive concept of mind.

And "mind" is the primitive concept of... what?

From this perspective, dogs and cats could clearly be regarded as conscious, but ants and mollusks would not.

Cephalopods learn, react to changes, and show remarkable abilities--enough that they are legally vertebrates in England. Are they conscious?

 

[Radrook]

We're not really concerned with Christendom here. I have not believed in any ideologies taught therein for a long time. But, I am talking about the common idea of the soul, as believed by many different religions and belief systems.

Others here [not you] might take that interpretation as a given and proceed on that assumption. Ergo my explanation for those who might possibly be on that wavelength.

I am well aware. I used to be a Jehovah's Witness actually, and they taught this very idea. But nevertheless, that's not the common idea of a soul, which is what we're discussing here. Further, I don't believe in anything the Bible says, so it doesn't really matter to me.

Again you are not the only person in this discussion and my comment was made in order to prevent a common misperceptiuon from being taken as a given. What you personally were, choose to believe or not believe is totally irrelevant and of no significance whatsoever to the purpose of my comment.

BTW
I truly hope for your sake that you are jesting or hyperboling when you say you believe NOTHING of what is written in the Bible since that mentality requires a profound state of idiocy.

 

[I Ratant]

When the bible as an entity is considered, there is nothing in it.
It's just a collection of fables.
Pay attention to some if you so desire.. "Do unto others...", but not all "kill those ....".
Other religions have similar fables which prove they are the "true faith", so it's easy to discard all of them on that factor.
There is no physical evidence of this "soul", it's merely a thought-experiment in controlling people.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Ron_Tomkins, thanks. Where can I see all of them? That seems only to be a snippet.

On youtube there's a lot of stuff including some 6 part lectures and a 15 part debate with a theist.

At your nearest library you should find a lot of his stuff as well including "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" and "Consciousness Explained".


See, the problem of really accepting the idea that there isn't a soul and that what we experience is in essence the product of chemical and electrical impulses; is an philosophic, psychologic and epistemological one. Dennett is good at taking all the parts out and putting them back on, to show how we have been taught to think and why thinks are inconceivable.

 

[billydkid]

No.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

One can certainly define the soul as part of the mind, which itself is a subset of the biological and chemical functions of the brain. But if you can call it a soul, then you can also call it whatever you want. There's no evidence nor need for a soul as commonly defined.

Of course, there are plenty of advantages to having no soul. It's a lot less baggage to carry around, it's one less thing to have to keep track of, it keeps dementors from congregating in my neighborhood, and it helps me avoid detection in case some other-worldly emperor tries to invade the Earth realm with a campy martial arts tournament. There are times I wish I had one, such as when I found out how much you could get by selling your soul on eBay, but then again I could probably still get away with it-- it's eBay; who's to know the difference?

 

[Radrook]

When the bible as an entity is considered, there is nothing in it.
It's just a collection of fables. ....

That merely shows your profound ignorance.

The Bible contains historical records of the nation of Israel, records verified by history and archeology. Such as the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions and subsequent exile of the Ten Tribe and later the two tribe kingdom. The ascension and reign o f kings from Saul up to the deportations is record in First and Second Kings. The pre kingdom history is recorded in Judges. There are the warning statements of the prophets major and minor prophets. The poetic book of Psalms which composed of statements of praise that were sung. The life of Jesus Christ as recorded in Matthew Mark Luke and John.

The history of the founding of the Christian church and its development during the first century as recorded in the book of Acts. The many letters written to the congregations in Corinth, Philipi, Rome, to the Hebrews, by Paul are explanatory and instructional in nature. As are the two letters of Peter and the three of John.

Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, far from containing fables provides timely advice on how to live our lives wisely. And a host of other material which doesn't fit your mindless category of fable.

Question: It's obvious by your statement that you know NOTHING about the Bible. Since you definitely are ignorant of the nature of Bible content, or essentially KNOW NOTHING, how do you justify making such absurd tongue-in-cheek patently false statements? You must either have a very low opinion of other people's intelligence on this forum or else are counting on their mindless ant-biblical bigotry to back you up. Which one is it?



Addendum:

Leviticus = Instructions for the Levitical priesthood on how to carry out their priestly duties at the tabernacle and later at the temple built by Solomon.

Deutereonomy[second law] = A detailed instructions about the law under which the nation of Israel was to function.

Lamentations = An outcry of grief in reference to exile in Babylon.

Joshua= A historical account of the invasion of Caanan.

 

[Perpetual Seeker]

Radrook, we really don't care in this thread. If you want to argue about the validity of the Bible, please go somewhere else.

Here, we are discussing whether or not the idea of the soul, as commonly believed by many as an ethereal entity within and yet separate from the body, is real, or not. The Bible has nothing to do with this.

Thanks.

 

[Radrook]

Radrook, we really don't care in this thread. If you want to argue about the validity of the Bible, please go somewhere else.

Here, we are discussing whether or not the idea of the soul, as commonly believed by many as an ethereal entity within and yet separate from the body, is real, or not. The Bible has nothing to do with this.

Thanks.

The stop disgorging anti-biblical falsehoods which demand a response. I could just as easily tell YOU to go elsewhere where the topic is biblical content and you can spout inanities to your hearts content. But there's a better solution to your obvious penchant for unsolicited rudeness.

BTW

Weird how people on this particular forum invariably become fanatically and belligerently irrational at the mere whif of the word Bible. Classical stimulous response I guess. Sigh! Oh well.

 

[Perpetual Seeker]

Radrook, you were the one who originally mentioned the Bible, not I. I don't care about anything the Bible has to say, nor does this thread have anything to do with the Bible.