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Does the soul exist?

Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
60
I've been becoming more skeptical lately, but one of those ideas I've been having trouble with letting go of is the soul, mostly because it is a really scary idea that there may be no soul.

For those who used to believe in such, how did you come to think that there is no soul?

I really have no argument right now to point to the possibility of there being a soul. But i'm curious how those who have previously believed in it, came to discard that belief, as well as some things that come with that belief, such as stories of hauntings, for example. These things can sound quite convincing sometimes if you don't know what can actually be happening.

I did think of a few things, but am not so sure I can express them very well. For instance, does science know yet specifically which part of the brain is responsible for consciousness? It doesn't seem like a localized, single focus sort of thing. For instance, if I ask myself where exactly my consciousness or awareness is located, I can narrow it down to the region of the head, but that's about as far as it goes.

Further, one could ask what exactly the self is. I don't think the thoughts are it, just because they are so transitory. I would argue that the self is this consciousness I've mentioned above, that I don't exactly know the location of.

It's hard, because I don't think anyone really knows yet what creates consciousness. That is, we've not been able to recreate consciousness, or to break it down in any meaningful fashion, except that it seems that we know now what part of the brain is probably responsible for the personality, and so forth. But that's not everything there is to consciousness.

Like I said, I'm still on the fence with this one, but am completely open to any arguments either way. I just want to find the truth, no matter what that might be.
 
I stopped believing in souls when I realized no one has a good definition for it. As for everything you mentioned, it's just an arguement from incredulity. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it has to be this nebulous "soul" thing that can be whatever you want it to be. It's ok to Not Know. Not Knowing now doesn't mean Not Knowing later.
 
For those who used to believe in such, how did you come to think that there is no soul?

I guess I used to believe I had a soul, but I never gave it any serious consideration. Once I did, it seemed clear that there is no evidence for a supernatural soul.

But i'm curious how those who have previously believed in it, came to discard that belief, as well as some things that come with that belief, such as stories of hauntings, for example. These things can sound quite convincing sometimes if you don't know what can actually be happening.

I agree that haunting stories can sound quite convincing to many people. But again, where's the evidence of ghosts or souls? If I hear creaking in the attic, maybe it's a ghost. More likely, it's the wind, or an animal, or burglar, or someone playing a trick on me, or the house settling. I can't say with absolute certainty it's not a ghost, but it seems far more likely that there is a natural explanation for it. Since there's never been proof that ghosts are real, why believe in ghosts? Because of pop culture, literature, psychology, etc.
For instance, does science know yet specifically which part of the brain is responsible for consciousness? It doesn't seem like a localized, single focus sort of thing. For instance, if I ask myself where exactly my consciousness or awareness is located, I can narrow it down to the region of the head, but that's about as far as it goes.

This is a big subject, that's been covered here a lot--you might want to do a search. But regardless of what we know or don't know about consciousness--that doesn't prove or disprove the existence of a soul.

Further, one could ask what exactly the self is. I don't think the thoughts are it, just because they are so transitory. I would argue that the self is this consciousness I've mentioned above, that I don't exactly know the location of.
Interesting philosophical question--again, been discussed here and elsewhere quite a bit. Doesn't at all prove that we have souls.

There are a lot of things about self and consciousness and the world that we don't understand. When people don't understand things, they often make stuff up. People used to believe ill people were inhabited by demons, at a time when we didn't know better, and germ theory hadn't been discovered. Maybe we'll discover that we really do have supernatural souls--and if that's what the evidence points to, I'll believe it. But so far, I've seen no evidence whatsoever. I can think of lots of reasons why people want to believe in souls, but I don't believe in such a thing.
 
The first problem with a soul is when was the first one?
Homo sapiens sapiens #1?
Home erectus?
How about Neanderthal?
Is the idea of soul merely a "feature" of achieving consciousness, and an attempt to explain the human attributes of altruism etc?
Do animals with consciousness possess souls?
Or is the soul a construct of a control freak selling woo who has hit on a way to sell nothing, the soul, for something.. your acquiesance to his authority, based mainly on his desire for power?
Personally, it's a load of crap.
Just a carrot to hold in front of the easily fooled and led, promising something that will never be delivered.
 
I've been discussing consciousness on that thread Mercutio linked to, but I'm glad to be asked specifically about how I came to give up the idea. I was into Eastern mysticism from being a teenager. Rewind - I rejected most of the Christian stuff I had preached at me half-heartedly at school on a Monday morning, because there were so many inconsistencies in it, and so many apparently arbitrary ideas. Consistency would seem to be a good principle in looking at the world and trying to work out the truth, and so things like God deciding at some historical point to come to earth in a human body, suffer and die to teach people something about their freedom or freedom from sin or whatnot, it all just raised obvious questions: why? Why did God not just leave us enjoying the garden of eden, enlighten us about good and evil, and not mess us about so much? The Old Testament God is a jealous, genocidal maniac who shouldn't be let loose with a trowel, let alone a universe.

I thought Eastern mysticism would satisfy something - which actually just turned out to be my desire to keep believing in wonderful nothings, in response to the fear you mention, and I spent the next 20 years or more flipping back and forth between sceptical materialism and religion - I picked and chose bits that I thought made sense from Hinduism, Vedanta, Buddhism, etc., without discriminating, and felt for a lot of that time that my truth-seeking was finding underlying truths behind the allegorical stuff. This is one of the hooks of religion, it usually confesses that it has to be allegorical or metaphorical: the Absolute cannot be described perfectly; all we can do is create pointers towards it. Christ's parables is an example. That could be a valid philosophical position - it could point to something real, or it could just be one of the ways that unreal things come into cultural being.

I settled more and more on Buddhism, as satisfying my belief that there was 'something more to life than this' (and, unconsciously, my desire to be immortal, even in contradiction of a Buddhist tenet - at least to gain Enlightenment, whatever that was). I've always been fairly lazy, and my meditation practice and study of Buddhism was half-hearted. Until some months ago, when that faith all fell apart for me. About 18 months ago I started a much more rigorous search, reading different psiritual philosophies and writing my own critiques of them in a journal. I genuinely thought I would focus things down and find out what I could trust, which would be some version of Buddhism or something, and genuinely kept in mind that I might not, too. Everything I read was very hard to believe much of, and most of it had glaring stupidities and gaps. Emminent scientists turned gurus were clearly morons. Swamis and gurus clearly had no grasp of simple logic, while they appeared to argue logical points. I traced most of their reasoning back to assumptions that truth was to be found in the Baghavad Gita, or some other personal bias. One possible exception is certain limited parts of Buddhist philosophy, although I may still be working from wishful thinking. A writer on Zen impressed me by the rigorous consistency of his philosophy...but things can be consistent and wrong, too. Anyway, there was no soul.

More recently, I turned from studing books and decided I wanted to 'go for it'. I had messed about thinking that there was this thing called Enlightenment for long enough, I wasn't getting any younger, and it was time to get a teacher and meditate every day. I approached a few online Buddhist communities. One (or the representative I had email discussions with) was helpful and kind, but I began to doubt the philosophy more at that point. Here is my problem. I know with quite a fair bit of conviction that we can program ourselves to believe things. I've worked in psychotherapy, and I know that if you start to imagine things, those things take on a reality of their own. This is the basis of placebo, hypnosis, etc., and ghosts and souls and all manner of woo. I was concerned that in meditation, rather than finding the truth, I might simply be subtly programming myself with whatever assumptions underlay the work. Was there a kind of meditation that had no assumptions - well, I'm still thinking there might be, but the one being recommended was far from it. I was to do certain exercises every day, but there was a philosophy behind that. One exercise was to label my experiences nama or rupa, which means subjective impressions or obejcts, respectively. To cut a long story shorter, that just showed the mentality I wanted to avoid: the question of whether there was an objective reality, or whether I could distinguish between these things was something I didn't want to answer first, since it was part of the discovery I was hoping to make. There were a few other problems I discussed with this patient woman. I'm told that the goal is enlightenment, I said, but do not know if it is a real goal worth working towards. Are you enlightened, or is your guru, or any person you know? I asked her. No clear answer there. If the state of Enlightenment is the lack of desire, should I desire it and work towards it, or go with the flow of life - or, in other words, is Enlightenment fulfilled when you stop chasing it? I asked. At least a reasonable answer, if still paradoxical - you have to work to get there, and desire can help along the way, and laziness isn't going to get you there. I was losing faith, but said I would contact her if I wanted to sign up to the support she offered through her organisation - free support and advice over 3 months.

Other experiences of Buddhist sangha (community) impressed me with how two-faced, closed-minded, dismissive, hurtful and ignorant Buddists could be. With respect to those who are not, of course, but some of those I talked to showed a staggering ability to talk the talk and walk all over you in hob-nailed boots. In particular, one Buddhist monk was so defensive in response to my criticism (polite, but challenging some of the inconsistencies I saw in their texts, and questioning some of the philosophical arguments ascribed to the Alleged Historical Buddha) that he simply and completely censored me from his forum - as far as I can tell, and I have no other explanation. Although he didn't actually ban me, my post vanished. I posted again asking what had happened to my first post, and postulating that it might have been deleted to censor my questions, and that disappeared. I wrote an accusative PM, which he ignored (probably deleted it from his inbox). I really hadn't expected that of Buddhists; Catholic Priests, yes, Buddhists, no. I did some reading, and noticed that the rules for these monks, on their way to 'liberation', were so numerous and detailed that they spanned six volumes.

My discussions here have been a positive influence, and reinforced that realisation that my thinking was rather sloppy when it came to these background hopes of salvation of some kind. The desire was just driving me to search and search for something to believe in, and now I'm trying materialism on for size. Also, the materialist arguments here have been quite inspiring. For a long time I couldn't get the idea of emergent consciousness, and it's still a 'hard problem' for me, but I have overcome a delusion that I see people still repeating over and over in that other thread, that there must be some subjective 'thing', a witness of my life other than those bits of matter making up my body. I don't see it fully, but I can see that insisting doesn't make real, and the evidence doesn't seem to support the idea.

I stay on the fence or within reach of it - that to me is being a sceptic - it may turn out that there is a spiritual dimension, and science just hasn't had the tools or focus to notice it, but the overwhelming reason I doubt it is because I know more about how life could do without it, and how human life probably did better, from an evolutionary point of view, by constructing the delusion, at least historically - we might need to overcome it in future. I'm also surprised to find that I don't feel all the dread meaninglessness I thought I might. I'm not living in a cold dead universe. I'm still living in a warm alive one. Presents still exist after we discover the truth about Santa Claus. In many ways, life seems more wonderful.
 
I stopped believing in souls when I realized no one has a good definition for it. As for everything you mentioned, it's just an arguement from incredulity. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it has to be this nebulous "soul" thing that can be whatever you want it to be. It's ok to Not Know. Not Knowing now doesn't mean Not Knowing later.

Very true. I guess there are things we don't know in anything, but we don't need to come up with silly ideas of what it might be but probably isn't. that's why I stopped believing in a god, because I saw that it was being used to fill in the gaps that science had not yet filled. I guess it is the same with consciousness.

I guess I used to believe I had a soul, but I never gave it any serious consideration. Once I did, it seemed clear that there is no evidence for a supernatural soul.

I'm starting to see the same.



I agree that haunting stories can sound quite convincing to many people. But again, where's the evidence of ghosts or souls? If I hear creaking in the attic, maybe it's a ghost. More likely, it's the wind, or an animal, or burglar, or someone playing a trick on me, or the house settling. I can't say with absolute certainty it's not a ghost, but it seems far more likely that there is a natural explanation for it. Since there's never been proof that ghosts are real, why believe in ghosts? Because of pop culture, literature, psychology, etc.

Actually, I was talking about more than just creaking. Some people who are convinced their house is haunted usually talk about seeing figures, hearing footsteps, lights turning on and off, doors opening and shutting, etc. It is such phenomena that I can't really refute with my current understanding, so wanted to see how others do.

This is a big subject, that's been covered here a lot--you might want to do a search. But regardless of what we know or don't know about consciousness--that doesn't prove or disprove the existence of a soul.

Very true.

There are a lot of things about self and consciousness and the world that we don't understand. When people don't understand things, they often make stuff up. People used to believe ill people were inhabited by demons, at a time when we didn't know better, and germ theory hadn't been discovered. Maybe we'll discover that we really do have supernatural souls--and if that's what the evidence points to, I'll believe it. But so far, I've seen no evidence whatsoever. I can think of lots of reasons why people want to believe in souls, but I don't believe in such a thing.

That's actually a very good point. Usually the unknown had been ascribed with all sorts of supernatural ideas, just as you mentioned, and then science comes along and explains it and it isn't that strange at all; usually, it just takes a modification of an existing theory to take it into account. Even when it takes a whole new theory, it's still not at all supernatural, but readily explained. Not once have the supernatural theories ever been even remotely correct.

The first problem with a soul is when was the first one?
Homo sapiens sapiens #1?
Home erectus?
How about Neanderthal?
Is the idea of soul merely a "feature" of achieving consciousness, and an attempt to explain the human attributes of altruism etc?
Do animals with consciousness possess souls?
Or is the soul a construct of a control freak selling woo who has hit on a way to sell nothing, the soul, for something.. your acquiesance to his authority, based mainly on his desire for power?
Personally, it's a load of crap.
Just a carrot to hold in front of the easily fooled and led, promising something that will never be delivered.

Very good point as well. I have often wondered what sort of consciousness lower lifeforms have. How aware is a plant, or even a virus? People's ideas about souls don't usually answer such questions, because it isn't important to them. They usually say animals have souls so that their pets can go with them to heaven, but that's about as far as it goes.

I also agree usually it is a carrot to make people follow religious dogma.


Yep, I have that one bookmarked and plan to read it as soon as I have a little more time. Thanks for the link, though.

I've been discussing consciousness on that thread Mercutio linked to, but I'm glad to be asked specifically about how I came to give up the idea....

Thanks, John. I agree; the whole Christian thing never really did it for me, and I also studied Buddhism for a while. that's disappointing though that they have so many rules.

Where did such rules come from? Whoever gave those rules, how did they know that those were the correct rules? How did they know that their source was legit, or even that they weren't imagining it all? Today when someone hallucinates or hears voices, they are considered to have a mental problem, unless it is of a religious nature, then they are most probably a saint, or something equivalent in other religions. Maybe all of today's religions are products of people's insanity? That would be funny, anyway.
 
Sure the soul exists. But it's not the soul as understood by Christendom.

BTW
I find the proud declarations of skepticism and the policy of blindly accepting religious definitions without even taking the time to research the subject in order to verify the definition's accuracy to be rather odd-to say the least.
 
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I certainly hope there is a soul. I would like to think that humans (and all living creatures) are somehow more than the sum of their parts, that we are more than just organic machinery. Unfortunately, I don't know, and I can't say I've seen any evidence that there is something that could be called a soul. I don't firmly disbelieve in the possibility of a 'soul', but I would say that the concept is probably a manifestation of wishful thinking.

I have yet to experience a haunting for myself, and the second hand reports of them are usually pretty sketchy. Not to say that it is impossible, but I think there are far more likely scenarios for most haunting cases, and once someone gets the idea that a place is haunted, they start looking for whatever can be construed as spooky and paying extreme attention to it. In fact I would be willing to bet that you could take any random place, make up a chilling history for it, tell people it is haunted, let them stay the night, and many people would come back with stories confirming just how haunted the place is.
 
When one suffers a brain injury, ones personality takes a radical shift in presentation. When a man had a major section of his brain blown off by a shard of dynamite, he turned from the pleasant, affable man he was into an angry, bitter bastard.

The soul is often seen as the culprit behind love. However, people who suffer brain injuries often forget their families, fall out of love with their wives, do not love what they used to love.

If the soul exists, it is utterly superflous. So I'd say no, the soul does not exist.
 
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For instance, if I ask myself where exactly my consciousness or awareness is located, I can narrow it down to the region of the head, but that's about as far as it goes.


Most people, when asked, identify their consciousness as being about an inch behind their eyes, coresponding to an area of the pre-frontal cortex.
 
Some people who are convinced their house is haunted usually talk about seeing figures, hearing footsteps, lights turning on and off, doors opening and shutting, etc. It is such phenomena that I can't really refute with my current understanding, so wanted to see how others do.
Such phenomena as doors opening and shutting? Everything you mention in the quote above could have simple, natural explanations. Also, it's well known that sometimes people think dreams really happened, or remember details wrong, or have hallucinations (without drugs--this isn't uncommon, and Carl Sagan talks about it in Demon Haunted World). And why is a door opening and closing apparently on its own, sign of ghosts or a "haunting"? Maybe it's Satan, or Jesus, or an alien from another galaxy, or a paranormal event that we are unfamiliar with? Not to mention the many natural causes that could be at work. It's interesting how something strange happens in a house, and some people are certain it's a ghost. All we know about ghosts is from fiction--movies, TV shows, books. We don't have any actual scientific knowledge of ghosts. So when a light goes off on its own, people tend to think of similar situations from movies.
 
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Are there many unexplained things in the world? Yes, key word: unexplained. Is there any empirical evidence whatsoever for the existence of a soul? None that I'm aware of.
 
So why do you say "sure there's a soul"?

The word translated "soul" in the OT is "nephesh". It is spoken of as having blood, feeling hunger, killed by the sword. In fact, it is used in Genesis in reference to animals. It also is used to refer to a person's future life. So obviously the word "nephesh as understood originally meant the person himself, his present, past and future life. In fact, that's they way it's used in the NT as well. So when viewed from that biblical perspective, the soul is the creature and the creature is the soul and definitely does exist when in existence.

What you are referring to is the Platonic idea of the soul as being immortal and apart from the physical body. For that unbiblical "soul" concept there is absolutely no evidence.

BTW
To verify this look up the word "soul" in a ancient Hebrew language lexicon and see for yourself.
 
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