Does the Skeptics politically correct stance make the problem worse ?

[billydkid]

Recently I was admonished (not nastily at all) by Dr Adequate and some other for inferring that people who hallucinate are mentally ill.

At the time I pretty much agreed that maybe I was being too harsh.

I have had a bit of a rethink.

I think we are being TOO nice. We are part of the problem by kowtowing to the psychic industry and not just calling a spade a spade.

I think this politically correct stance somewhat legitimises the industry and CERTAINLY lets the honest “psychics” to continue believing what they “see and hear” are legitimate psychic phenomena.

We should be STRIDENT in telling them NO.. what you “see and hear” IS a mental aberration.

You ARE mentally disturbed when you hallucinate and interpret those hallucinations as REAL.

If this was pushed heavily into the mainstream psychics would get the short shrift they deserve. People with genuine problems would seek and get help.

Thanks, I have actually said the same thing a couple of different times. I see no value at all in humouring stupidity and lazy thinking. No, belief in the supernatural and skepticism are not on the same footing. No, "faith" (so highly regarded for some reason) is a legitimate approach to arriving at the truth. Personally, I refuse any longer to walk on egg shells and to treat as legitimate non-rational belief systems. I believe that religion and myticism and the paranormal and all of this stuff deserved to be exposed as the self serving corruption it all is.

 

[songstress]

The 'psychic industry?' What's that, then?

 

[songstress]

Dr Adequate,

Strange as it may seem to you, I agree 100% with what you say.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Patsy.

 

[turtle]

Recently I was admonished (not nastily at all) by Dr Adequate and some other for inferring that people who hallucinate are mentally ill.

At the time I pretty much agreed that maybe I was being too harsh.

I have had a bit of a rethink.

I think we are being TOO nice. We are part of the problem by kowtowing to the psychic industry and not just calling a spade a spade.

I think this politically correct stance somewhat legitimises the industry and CERTAINLY lets the honest “psychics” to continue believing what they “see and hear” are legitimate psychic phenomena.

We should be STRIDENT in telling them NO.. what you “see and hear” IS a mental aberration.

You ARE mentally disturbed when you hallucinate and interpret those hallucinations as REAL.

If this was pushed heavily into the mainstream psychics would get the short shrift they deserve. People with genuine problems would seek and get help.

ROF, well, well now. At least you've admitted it! Ah, all those wasted months of dancing around, you feeling so misunderstood whenever one accused you of calling people - er, sorry, "woos" -- mentally ill. We were playing the victim, we were being paranoid, we were not understanding what you really meant. And yet here we have it! Thanks Aussie for the post! Ta!

 

[Dr Adequate]

(NB: I've rearranged the original post slightly to make the bits that go together go together. I hope this is OK.)

I think we established in the other thread (and reiterated in this one) that the problem is with the INTEPRETATION (I know you love my use of caps) of the hallucination.

"We" established? Speak for yourself.

If we agree that a hallucination, though aberrant, is not a sign of mental illness in the individual hallucinating, then consider that most people (in the UK, anyway) seem to have some sort of paranormal belief... I think Ashles gave a figure of 40%. Now, are they all mentally ill? No.

So, we have two things seperately "seeing things" and believing in ghosts, neither of which make you mentally ill. You wish them to do so when put together. But in fact, someone who has seen something which looks like a ghost and believes in ghosts has slightly better grounds for belief than someone who hasn't seen a ghost and believes in ghosts, and is therefore that much more sensible. Compare songstress, who believes in ghosts and sees them, with Interesting Ian, who believes in ghosts, does not see them, and is a grandiose paranoid monomaniac with a personality disorder.

Sane rational people eventually determine their hallucination is NOT reality.

Oh... eventually. How long do they get before you declare tham "mentally ill". Days? Weeks? Years? It took the fragrant Nex twelve years, wasn't it? to stop being a woowoo. Nuts? Your call.

Will you not concede that hallucinating IS not a normal mental process ? Or is it normal to see something that does not exist ?

Yes. Ever had a dream? Also my poll suggests that most people hallucinate, though I concede it's self-selecting.

Reread Sharons post and tell me if you cannot see the dangers of NOT defining these people as mentally ill and treating them as such.

I would certainly tell such a person as Sharon describes that they're mentally ill and should seek treatment.

To be honest you are partly right there… When their interpretation of their hallucination does not gel with reality and there is NO supporting physical corroborating evidence then they are either mentally ill or just plain stupid to continue believing.

I ONLY condemn those who foist their ridiculous interpretation of their hallucination off as “psychic phenomena”.

I guess its all a matter of degrees. An “ill” body is one which does not behave as it is supposed to. An “ill” mind is the same thing. A mind that “sees” things that do not exist and interprets them as reality (after examining other evidence) is ill.

But... imagine yourself in that position... what other evidence? Where do you look? What are your criteria for evidence? Who taught you critical thinking? the scientific method? elementary logic? probability theory? Bayes' theorem? the need for references? Who taught you that you needed to be taught these things? Above all, are you familiar with the long, undistinguished history of human error? --- for as a species, just as individuals, we learn best from our mistakes. What if you don't know any of this stuff because you haven't been told about it?

And so I can give you examples of simple questions about basic physics which most adults get wrong; simple problems in probability theory which only 11% get right, simple problems in logic which only 7% get right (with 43% --- the largest tranche --- making two separate mistakes).

This is how people are: without study, that's how they'll remain. This has nothing to do with either mental illness or stupidity. Some people are foaming mad or thick as two short planks, but a lot of them just don't know how to find things out, and don't know how to find out how to find things out, and don't know that they don't know that they need to find out how to find things out, and...

And here I'm talking of perfectly ordinary people, believer or non-believer in whatever. How is someone in that position to even begin sorting true ideas from false ones? Or to know that they're having difficulty in doing so? They are, in fact, Incompetent And Unaware Of It. This can be changed, but you need to begin at the beginning, not by attacking their conclusions.

 

[jmercer]

I agree with Dr. Adequate 100% - very, very well said.

 

[pyewhackett]

I think that hallucinations are not invariably indicative of mental illness, they can be resultant of physical sickness, tiredness, illicit and/or prescriptive drug use.

Certainly, it's the frequency of, and how we interpret such an incident that is a good indication of its cause. Of course, each situation is different. It's also interesting to gauge the reactions of others to such a story - to see how susceptible they themselves are to belief.

As for pc language vs. straight talk - if we are speaking of someone with a condition it is best to help them if possible and not encourage them or taunt them. Depends on the situation.



Karen.

 

[JPK]

Re: Re: Does the Skeptics politically correct stance make the problem worse ?

Good morning everyone.

Very interesting thread. Thanks Aussie Thinker and Dr. Adequate for a lot if things to think about.
I think Dr. Adequate makes a great point when they stated

When people are genuinely mentally ill, as with Dennis44, it's right to tell them so... tactfully... and urge them to seek help. As I did. (Fortunately, he was already being treated for schizophrenia --- confirming my diagnosis, BTW). But even in this case, Aussie Thinker, your usual conversational gambit of shouting at him in capitals that he's nuts would have achieved little.

I also agree with Aussie Thinker that the apparent increase in people claiming to have “psychic abilities” may have a lot to do with the general attitude of acceptance of them in both the media and the general public.
I have found, that when typing to someone who claims to have psychic abilities, it is very important to start at the beginning as pointed out by Dr. Adequate. Just getting someone to clearly state what his or her psychic ability is, can take a long time. ( Just look at the Challenge topic)
I am interested in why people believe in the paranormal. I’m not really interested in trying to get them to change their beliefs. In order to learn from them, I need to ask many questions. Unfortunately, whenever you ask questions of someone’s beliefs, it’s like walking through a minefield. Just the mention of hallucinations can often be interpreted as an attack on their mental health. For the most part, people will simply reject the fact that they might be wrong about the way they remember an experience. You can suggest a way for people to test themselves. Who knows if they ever will. All in all I feel that the best answer is to try and point people in the direction of answers. People need to learn things for themselves. Suggest a book or two that might show what they have experienced just might have been experienced by others before and that there may be a very natural explanation for it. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
I guess it all depends on your goal in the beginning. If you are trying to make someone change his or her belief, I think you will be fighting a losing battle. No matter how many CAPS you use. If you’re trying to understand how people jump to a supernatural explanation to explain a strange occurrence even when perfectly mundane explanations exist, it takes time and the desire to listen on both sides. Just my two cents.
JPK

 

[AOK Tiger]

Songstress,

The 'psychic industry?' What's that, then?

Anything from “Crossing over” to “Medium” to Jambos.. “Psychic Jamborees”. You may not recognise it as an “industry” but it most certainly is.

Dr Adequate,

Strange as it may seem to you, I agree 100% with what you say.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

I hope you realise DR A only disagrees with me in terms of defining what is mentally Ill.. I am quite sure he absolutely agrees with me that whatever you hallucinate about has NO correlation with reality and does NOT have a paranormal explanation.

I think he likes you (and I am sure you are a likeable person) and has therefore fallen into a bit of a trap of humouring you (I have done the same thing before). (Humoring is probably a bit harsh.. but I cannot think of a better term)

This whole argument is about the WAY we treat these paranormal claims. I have just realised that maybe we exacerbate the problem by humouring, being “nice”, politically correct etc.

Turtle(Aka Barbie)

ROF, well, well now. At least you've admitted it! Ah, all those wasted months of dancing around, you feeling so misunderstood whenever one accused you of calling people - er, sorry, "woos" -- mentally ill. We were playing the victim, we were being paranoid, we were not understanding what you really meant. And yet here we have it! Thanks Aussie for the post! Ta

At NO stage did I call anyone mentally ill. I said it is an avenue you should explore as an answer to your “ability”. Barbie you epitomise the problem we have with psychics. You are a likeable honest person. YET you refused to examine your ability in detail and refused to carry out simple tests to compare your “ability” with reality.

If you had known from the outset that it is common for humans to hallucinate or recreate memories and that thinking these are real is a mental problem you would have NEVER regarded them as a “psychic ability”.

We tiptoe around the issue so much it just allows the problem to fester.

DR A

I am sure we only disagree on the definition of mentally ill.

And by degree yes you may be right… but…

I am merely trying to point out our “understatement” of the issue is only making it worse. By mollycoddling the “honest” psychics (like Songstress and Barbie) are we doing them any favours.

We it be better to be cruel to be kind ??? Has being kind worked in ANY way.

JPK

Excellent points.

I would like to reiterate though the softly softly approach just isn’t working.

A good example is the 3 week argument I had with Barbie.. at NO stage would she agree to even the most simple of self examinations. So where do you go from there ?

I must admit though trying to get info from “psychics” is like trying to get blood from a stone and the way you get information is patient and rewarding. I get way to impatient with non answers, prevarication and then flight !

 

[AOK Tiger]

DR A,

Sorry I glossed over your previous excellent post...I would like to try and explain a little better. I’ll use personal anecdotes to show I am not immune to "normal" human experiences.

Dreaming.

I have had VIVID dreams in the past that “seemed” very real. EG. I dreamed I had wrecked my precious XB GT 351 Ford Falcon (I sideswiped and ripped all the panels of one side). I went and examined the wreckage in the morning still felling extremely glum and was AMAZED to find it intact ! I even asked my Dad if he had fixed it overnight.. it was that real !

Now I had proof that my “dream” was just that.. it was easy to determine what was real and what wasn’t.

Lets say I had a similar vivid dream where my late Grandpa came and spoke to me. How do I determine if that is real or not.

Well I examine it in many different ways.

Can dead people talk… NO
Has there ever been any scientifically verifiable evidence of life after death… NO
Is it even logical that life after death exists… NO
Was any “impossible to know” information imparted by Grandpa… NO or
If (YES) to the above could I have “known” this information but forgotten.. YES
Can people have very “real seeming” dreams that are not real… YES
Can people hallucinate and mistake it for reality… YES

ETC ..

These are not difficult things to do. Should we not berate (at least in some small way) the “psychics” who refuse to do these simple examinations ?

Hallucination

After having a particularly nasty joint about 20 years ago (I dunno what was in it but they never used to affect me much).. I had a weird hallucination (or trip or something).. Everything was distorted.. poles wobbled.. faces elongated and before I was physically ill (for hours mind you) the whole world was the wrong colour shape and texture.

Now this hallucination was drug induced so it is easily dismissed as not being real.

What happens if I have the same hallucination without the drugs or illness.

Well I guess I would examine it similarly to my above approach with the dream.

I would firstly seek medical help for the reason that I was hallucinating in the first place and secondly I would compare my hallucinations with KNOWN reality. Either my experience of reality BEFORE I hallucinated or testimony of others as to what was real.

At NO stage could I assume my hallucination to be a reality that is illogical, unproven and unlikely.. like a paranormal event.

 

[JPK]

Good evening Aussie Thinker,

I would like to reiterate though the softly softly approach just isn’t working.

A good example is the 3 week argument I had with Barbie.. at NO stage would she agree to even the most simple of self examinations. So where do you go from there ?

I must admit though trying to get info from “psychics” is like trying to get blood from a stone and the way you get information is patient and rewarding. I get way to impatient with non answers, prevarication and then flight !

I feel your pain. But certainly you can’t possibly believe that you will get turtle to actually stop and think about her claims and test them. For that matter even doubt them for a second. Turtle has her beliefs and that’s that. The important thing to realize is that there are many people who do question the strange things that happen to them and look for rational explanations for them. These are the people that will be willing to pick up a book and search for those answers. This is not to say that turtle hasn’t researched the topic, because I clearly think she has. She seems to have found an answer to confirm her beliefs. We have all had strange experiences that are not readily explained. Doesn’t make us nuts, just ignorant of a rational explanation. Oh yeah, ignorant is another word that gets some people up in arms. A word I will not use in a “believer forum”
I think you make a good point about tiptoeing around the issue and allowing it to fester, but I do not think that blame lies with us. In my opinion, the acceptance of these psychic abilities comes from people much closer to home, and at a much younger age. Communities of people that you grew up with, with similar beliefs have a far greater influence then an anonymous person in a forum on the net.
I have friends that make rather superstitious statements. I politely give my point of view. They can accept it or not but it won’t go further. It took years for me to get a friend of mine to just open a book I gave her that explained a problem she had experienced with sleep paralysis. She had a firm belief that aliens were involved. If I tried to read it to her she would leave the room. That is what happens with beliefs. No matter how painful they are to have, they are more painful to risk losing. Some people need them. This is where I say “see my signature”.
I have often said that I would like to think that if I was experiencing glimpses of the future or seeing ghosts on a regular basis that I would seek some professional help, and if I didn’t, I would hope that someone close to me would make that happen. I can’t be sure since I have not been in that situation.
I miss Carl Sagan, and I think the world does as well. Scientists are rarely good spokespeople to the masses. He had the gift. He was the Mr. Rogers of science. I wonder what the news coverage of the Mars rovers would be like with him around. I wonder what he would have said about the pictures of Titan. He had the ability to make the mundane explanation for things still seem personally important. Meanwhile, the media will continue to put out their exciting, ratings grabbing paranormal silliness, unquestioned by reason, because reason will just be….well, mundane.
I bring up Carl Sagan for a reason. I have had several friends that had some interesting beliefs. I have found that a “dose” of the series Cosmos got them to become a little more open to investigation of their own beliefs. I have the series on DVD and have lent it to several people. Something about it triggered an interest in them. That is where I fight my battles. With people I have to deal with face to face. The media wants ratings and the masses want the paranormal. But how cool would it be for a show to show the other side, you know, the real evidence? It not only could be done but should be done.
People do seem to be losing a grip on what is real.
JPK
Ps sorry for the rambling post. I’ve been awake a long time.

 

[jmercer]

I don't think you rambled at all. Your post was excellent.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Well I examine it in many different ways.

Can dead people talk… NO
Has there ever been any scientifically verifiable evidence of life after death… NO
Is it even logical that life after death exists… NO
Was any “impossible to know” information imparted by Grandpa… NO or
If (YES) to the above could I have “known” this information but forgotten.. YES
Can people have very “real seeming” dreams that are not real… YES
Can people hallucinate and mistake it for reality… YES

ETC ..

These are not difficult things to do. Should we not berate (at least in some small way) the “psychics” who refuse to do these simple examinations ?

OK. Let's be a woowoo for a moment.

Can dead people talk... YES.

How can there be all those stories with nothing behind them? We all know there's no smoke without fire don't we? Besides which, I've experienced it myself, how can I close my eyes to my own experience....

(ANECDOTES ARE EVIDENCE; ASSUMING THE THING TO BE PROVED)

Has there ever been any scientifically verifiable evidence of life after death… YES.

Lots. Look at all those eminent scientists who studied Victorian psychics. How can you think that you're smarter than them? Besides, I don't need "scientific evidence" for spirits... I've seen them! Besides, how do you explain away...

(ARGUMENT FROM UNDESERVED AUTHORITY; ASSUMING THE THING TO BE PROVED; MORE ANECDOTES)

Is it even logical that life after death exists… YES.

It is logically inevitable. Obviously living creatures can't be just made out of non-living atoms. There must therefore logically be something to me besides the material, namely the spiritual. Now death is the death of the material body; but as we have seen, the spirit is not dependent on the physical body, and so we have no logical reason to suppose that it dies with the physical body, whereas we have much evidence, e.g. ghosts, NDEs, reincarnation etc to show that it doesn't.

(FALLACY OF COMPOSITION, MORE BLEEDIN' ANECDOTES)

Was any “impossible to know” information imparted by Grandpa… YES or
If (YES) to the above could I have “known” this information but forgotten.. NO

Of course not. How could anyone ever forget something like that? I have never studied psychology, but my experience shows that my memory is always correct. Other people sometimes get confused about the past, but my memory of past event is always exact and crystal clear, with no fuzziness or ambiguity about it, which shows that it's accurate.

(ARGUMENT FROM KNOWING NOTHING ABOUT HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY)

Can people have very “real seeming” dreams that are not real… YES
Can people hallucinate and mistake it for reality… YES

However, such people are all mentally ill. Now if I were mentally ill, my friends, family, colleagues etc would have noticed. Therefore I am not mentally ill, and therefore was not hallucinating, and therefore saw a ghost.

(THE "AUSSIE THINKER FALLACY": ONLY MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE HALLUCINATE)

So, let's start at the beginning, shall we?

Teach them the real skinny on the human mind.

Don't just yell at them that they're mad.

I dare say some of them are. Your time is best spent talking to the others.

 

[JPK]

Good evenign jmercer,

I don't think you rambled at all. Your post was excellent.

Thanks. I spent some time on the court tv forum with Aussie Thinker and turtle. Turtle was telling us about some of the strange events that have occured in her life. Aussie Thinker was attempting to get her to test her claims but this wasn't going to happen because turtle is already convinced that certain events occured and are beyond question. It was a long and interesting affair. I must say that turtle was very forthcoming and spoke from the heart about her experiences, which I have found to be very rare. However I think the post she made on this board as an obvious attack on Aussie Thinker was uncalled for. Just my opinion.

Anyway, thanks for your kind words.

JPK

 

[AOK Tiger]

DR A,

That was very nicely put.. (I especially liked the capital usage for emphasis).

You know of course I do not practice what I preach.. I NEVER scream at woos’(like Songstress and Turtle) that they are loonies and nutcases (although I do at creationists). This was merely an exercise in examining wether we SHOULD start being more blunt about their mental state.

JPK,

Your insights and comments are ALWAYS welcome.. never a ramble. (Same as DR A for that matter).

The long winded conversation with Turtle (aka Barbie) WAS rewarding and I commend her for her honesty and the level of information she imparted.

It was also galling.. when someone as articulate clearly honest and (even likeable) as Barbie was COMPLETELY incapable of self examination how can we hope to convince anyone.

I will never understand (in spite of DR A’s eloquent (and amusing) defence of the woo position) why these people REFUSE to take the most simple logical steps to rid themselves of their fantasies !

 

[JPK]

DR A,

That was very nicely put.. (I especially liked the capital usage for emphasis).

You know of course I do not practice what I preach.. I NEVER scream at woos’(like Songstress and Turtle) that they are loonies and nutcases (although I do at creationists). This was merely and exercise in examining wether we SHOULD start being more blunt about their mental state.

JPK,

I will never understand (in spite of DR A’s eloquent (and amusing) defence of the woo position) why these people REFUSE to take the most simple logical steps to ridding themselves of their fantasies !

I think it was in Demon Haunted World, ( I do not have the book with me here.) where there was a quote from a student that just walked out of a lecture or class or something and was asked how it went. The response was something like, "I just learned that everything I thought was true, is wrong. It's great!" I love that feeling. To learn that what you thought was absolute truth is in error and then be shown otherwise. However there are those, so entrenched in their beliefs that the possibility that they might be wrong is horrifying to them. They NEED that belief. (Sorry but I dig the CAPS as well  ) Think about how hurtful it would be to you if we all found out that Interesting Ian's world view was valid. (This is not in any way meant as an attack on Ian. I do find him interesting!) That would shake you up a bit don't you think? It would be like a mental re-boot. You would need to rethink so many things.
I can’t speak for turtle and will not attempt to, but when someone has one of these “psychic experiences” it will seem very real to them. If they are surrounded by a support group of people that reinforce their beliefs it will make them stronger. No real evidence needed. It will also make them special. Even though no psychic I ever typed to was “special” in any way according to them. You have seen this before. After a while every psychic I’ve typed to try to tell me that it is not a special power, it is something we all have. It’s natural. Well, I have never experienced any psychic abilities. I’ve been told I’m blocking them. Perhaps, but all this makes it kinda hard to prove as a real thing. Oh well. I have no expectations of changing some ones beliefs. At least on-line.

JPK

 

[AOK Tiger]

JPK,

You know my favourite part of that whole argument with Turtle was when I explained that psychic powers (especially seeing the future etc) are paradoxically impossible and she HAD to acknowledge that they were.

But she still refused to look for an alternative explanation.

[i.e… If you see the future you can change the future.. if you change it, the future you saw originally never happened therefore how could you see it.

The explanation may be you can see “possible” futures. If the future you see is a “possible” future.. then it could just be anything. I could say every time a plane takes off .. I see this plane crashing and burning.. alternatively I see it landing safely !]

 

[JPK]

Good evening Aussie Thinker.
There is no way turtle will accept that paradox. No believer in precognition could.
It will be summarily ignored. I have no dispute with the arguments you made with turtle. I just do not see it leading to further discussion with turtle.
From what I have seen, turtle’s beliefs are pretty much set in stone. It will take a life altering occurrence to change that. Something no on-line, forum acquaintance is capable of doing. This is of course just my opinion. I could be wrong.
On the other hand, perhaps turtle is on to something. Perhaps she actually does have these abilities. I’m willing to accept that, but I will need proof. So far, as pointed out by her, there is no evidence other then her own personal experience. If I was in that position, that would suck. To have experienced something so amazing as seeing the future (with 100% accuracy I might add) and have no external proof of it must be frustrating at best.
You and others, thaiboxerken, (whipped tuna) for example, pointed out several self tests for turtle. She feels no need to try these because she is right. That’s that. I would love to be so sure of something I thought to be true. Guess I’m just not that confident

JPK