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Does SCOTUS deserve its exalted status?

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of Society give special deference and privileges to the more rich and/or powerful or those who are significantly above the norm in other ways.

The healthy response is open mockery, with the expectation that the target will play along and frequently engage in public self deprecation.
This is common in Native communities all over the world, and it is essential for social cohesion.

In short: the more power you have, the more ◊◊◊◊ you should expect and be willing to eat from absolutely everyone less powerful than you.
Or give up your power - it's your choice.
 
It's a fundamental misunderstanding of Society give special deference and privileges to the more rich and/or powerful or those who are significantly above the norm in other ways.
The healthy response is open mockery, with the expectation that the target will play along and frequently engage in public self deprecation. This is common in Native communities all over the world, and it is essential for social cohesion.

In short: the more power you have, the more ◊◊◊◊ you should expect and be willing to eat from absolutely everyone less powerful than you.
Or give up your power - it's your choice.
You see this occasionally when they have public speaking engagements (which are becoming more frequent) - like we're really not as smart as you think we are, haha.

It's like they're saying we're all amicable and friendly and there's no hidden animosity between us. Our country's peace depends on it when the other two branches are in such disarray.
 
Bringing this thread back alive because I think it's still important.

SCOTUS still kind of gets a free pass media-wise.

Is there much of a difference any more between electing or by extension appointing a justice?
Yes there is. Both are bad (if the electorate is the general population) but the mechanism used by the United States to appoint judges to the supreme court can be gamed very easily, which is why it is full of Republican stooges now.

You need to try to remove politics from the appointment process as much as possible because the judgements the courts make should be based on the law, not political biases.
 
For an idea that is 250 years old it's worked amazingly well. It's also in need of a rewrite. Much of it hasn't worked as intended or doesn't apply to a modem world.
In hindsight the idea of giving nine people unreviewable plenipotentiary power for life may not have been a good idea.

Yes there is. Both are bad (if the electorate is the general population) but the mechanism used by the United States to appoint judges to the supreme court can be gamed very easily, which is why it is full of Republican stooges now.
Beginning with Robert Bork. For the longest time, Senate approval for Supreme Court justices was essentially a rubber stamp. The notion that a candidate would be rejected was noteworthy at the time. Nowadays the confirmation hearings are covered live and have become highly partisan and contentious. And of course we have to talk about Justice Thomas' tempestuous confirmation. After that, it was reported that Thomas said his lifelong goal afterwards was to make liberals pay for that embarrassment.

Part of the reason Republicans had such an easy time packing the judiciary is that the Democrats let them for so many years. Not the Supreme Court so much as the lower judiciary. A lot of us spent many years yelling that the Republicans were packing the courts, and we were firmly told by corporate Democrats, "No, they aren't, don't be silly."

The practical fact is that the Supreme Court cannot hear every case they're petitioned to hear. So they can't fix everything. The appeals courts are where most law gets done. Before you ask, the trial level is where the fact-finding happens. But if you want a novel reading of the law or a ruling on a difficult fact pattern—90 percent of fact patterns aren't—you need an astute judgment at the appellate level. For practical purposes, most of these decisions need to stand as written, and up until now most have. We should be more afraid of Justice Emil Bové than Justice Barrett because he hears cases that have an appeal as of right.

You need to try to remove politics from the appointment process as much as possible because the judgements the courts make should be based on the law, not political biases.
I agree, and part of the problem we have with the present Supreme Court is that the Republican supermajority is blatantly just making stuff up at this point. Lacking four votes to grant certiorari, the liberal minority cannot even bring cases to the court to identify the problems with the majority's often hasty reasoning (think Heller followed by Bruen).

As a professor explained to me, the court has always been political, but it is rarely partisan. Guess where we are now. The notion that a President gets to appoint justices presumes that the choice embodies an ideological alignment. There is plenty of wiggle room within law for varying opinions. The Senate's role in confirmation is meant to check a rogue President or a rogue candidate, but that was based on the nominal role of the Senate as the sober patrician house of Congress instead of the populist rabble it has devolved into.

Most notably, the court is dabbling where it shouldn't now. Ordinarily the court becomes interested in a case only after its record has been fully developed, its final judgment rendered, and its appellate decisions written and debated. Now with the rise of the so-called shadow docket (cf. Steven Vladeck) we see the court diving into interlocutory motions, granting certiorari before judgment, and rendering incontestable rulings on pre-trial motions that incomprehensibly allow Pres. Trump to make fish soup. This degree of micromanagement is highly unusual. And if there were any doubt, the court's ruling in Trump v. U.S. essentially absolving Donald Trump of any practical criminal liability has to invent the Bold Executive doctrine out of thin air to support the Republican partisan agenda.

You see this occasionally when they have public speaking engagements (which are becoming more frequent) - like we're really not as smart as you think we are, haha.
And they really aren't. There are judges on the federal bench who have far more jurisprudence experience and a far better knowledge of law than the justices on the Supreme Court. Justice Thomas was a federal judge for less than two years before being appointed to the Supreme Court. When these people spend decades in the rarified atmosphere of high-altitude appellate review after only a few years (if that) on the actual bench, they really do lose touch with how the law interacts with real life.

The law academy remains split on the prestige of the court. Most younger professors are quite aware that the Supreme Court justices are not really all that smart where the law is concerned. They aren't generally the wisest or widest read, or even the best lawyers. Consequently they have no problem offering even harsh criticism over recent decisions. On the other hand you have the old-guard professors who have been conditioned for years to treat the justices as the dispassionate priest-monarchs they like to portray themselves as—the only judges who ever wear their robes outside the courtroom (i.e., to the State of the Union address). In that view, the justices are holy oracles. To these old professors, the court's opinions are always regarded as visionary and incontestable. They'll happily toss their law review articles in the shredder if a court opinion contradicts them.

It's like they're saying we're all amicable and friendly and there's no hidden animosity between us. Our country's peace depends on it when the other two branches are in such disarray.
And therefore I have to end with Justice Sotomayor's recent apology to Justice Kavanaugh. In Noem v. Vasquez Perdomo, Justice Kavanaugh described his oft-lambasted "Kavanaugh Stop," wherein he imagined that ICE encounters with people of suspected ethnicity are brief, cordial affairs where the suspect's attestation to be a U.S. citizen is taken at face value and the suspect is immediately left to go about his business. Social media has had a field day with this, presenting the obviously violent, unlawful activity by ICE and labeling it a Kavanaugh Stop. And to be honest: Justice Kavanaugh deserves every single bit of this. His concurrence in Noem misstates fact to the point of sheer fantasy. This reinvention of the facts of the case has become a hallmark of the court's recent jurisprudence (See also Kennedy v. Bremerton School District). But at this level of proceeding the justices' picture of the facts is unreviewable. They know no one can call them on it credibly except in the court of public opinion.

And the funny thing is that Noem hasn't even gone to trial. This was a ruling on a temporary restraining order, which is normally not reviewable at all much less to the Supreme Court. This is the degree to which the majority feels the need to meddle in lower courts' authority in order to preserve the Trump agenda.

But the story doesn't end even there. Just recently, Justice Sotomayor apologized publicly to Justice Kavanaugh for continuing to comment uncharitably on the ludicrous fiction of the Kavanaugh Stop. To me this seems like the minority having been bullied into respecting even obviously ludicrous public decisions by the majority. When you listen to the oral arguments in various cases alongside people who really can read between the lines, you learn just how much some of the justices are antagonists of the others. You hear questions whose answers are likely to embarrass positions held by some of the justices, even if they aren't especially relevant to the case. They really don't like each other.

We know the Chief Justice is understandably (if not deludedly) concerned with the perception of the impartiality, cordiality, and collegiality of the court. I wonder if she got called to the principal's office and told, "Now Sonia, you need to play nicely with Brett." It was a shadow-docket decision on a minor order! Kavanaugh didn't need to write anything. For him to go out of his way to present an obviously Fake News version of the facts should really be something we talk about and something his more reasonable colleagues lambast him for. It's a bizarre, obviously partisan move. "Coach" Kavanaugh is clearly running judicial interference for some of the most hated and frankly fascist behavior from the Trump regime. Since we the people have no authority to challenge this, it falls to the associate justices to point out the blatant posturing.
 
The idea that the Supreme Court worked well until now ignores the larger history. They were largely a bunch of bastards since the beginning. Then there was a sort of post Lochner era where judges decided to be skeptical of abuses of political and economic power. That's where Roe, Miranda, etc. comes from. Then you get the Conservative legal movement that has almost wiped out the very idea of this sort of anti-establishment judiciary by appointing crackpot originalists and pushing the idea that originalism is anything but self serving gibberish sold as textualism rather than the pretextualism it actually is. Which is effectively the same naked catering to the rich and powerful that was in place up to and during the Lochner era.

A lot of people thought this anti-establishment attitude era was the norm when really it is a highly weird and unnatural thing. Judges have and always be prone to side with the rich and powerful. That progressives fall into the trap of deifying the judiciary and the "founding fathers" is a big part of this problem, They mistake norms that developed over time with the constitution itself.

The US would be better off without a mostly written constitution as that ends this BS where we sit around speculating what dead people thought rather than debating how law actually effects real living people. Sure, laying out some structure of government is a good idea but past that it is always going to be norms and traditions that carry the polity forward. By insisting on crediting this to the dead guys words we created a system where someone like Scalia can just piss all over these well developed traditions and norms without having to take personal moral responsibility or even make any sort of real practical argument for why his opinion improves the effect of jurisprudence on the people..

Just point to what the dead guys really said and claim that any harm is their fault. GG the idea of the Constitution being a check on the powerful.
 
The idea that the Supreme Court worked well until now ignores the larger history. They were largely a bunch of bastards since the beginning. Then there was a sort of post Lochner era where judges decided to be skeptical of abuses of political and economic power. That's where Roe, Miranda, etc. comes from. Then you get the Conservative legal movement that has almost wiped out the very idea of this sort of anti-establishment judiciary by appointing crackpot originalists and pushing the idea that originalism is anything but self serving gibberish sold as textualism rather than the pretextualism it actually is. Which is effectively the same naked catering to the rich and powerful that was in place up to and during the Lochner era.

A lot of people thought this anti-establishment attitude era was the norm when really it is a highly weird and unnatural thing. Judges have and always be prone to side with the rich and powerful. That progressives fall into the trap of deifying the judiciary and the "founding fathers" is a big part of this problem, They mistake norms that developed over time with the constitution itself.

The US would be better off without a mostly written constitution as that ends this BS where we sit around speculating what dead people thought rather than debating how law actually effects real living people. Sure, laying out some structure of government is a good idea but past that it is always going to be norms and traditions that carry the polity forward. By insisting on crediting this to the dead guys words we created a system where someone like Scalia can just piss all over these well developed traditions and norms without having to take personal moral responsibility or even make any sort of real practical argument for why his opinion improves the effect of jurisprudence on the people..

Just point to what the dead guys really said and claim that any harm is their fault. GG the idea of the Constitution being a check on the powerful.
I was talking to a judge here in Australia. He said exactly the same thing. Governments make laws and the courts enforce them. Some off the biggest problems occur when our much smaller constitution has cryptic clauses like yours. The "can't impede free trade between states" clause has done some heavy lifting.
 
I was talking to a judge here in Australia. He said exactly the same thing. Governments make laws and the courts enforce them. Some off the biggest problems occur when our much smaller constitution has cryptic clauses like yours. The "can't impede free trade between states" clause has done some heavy lifting.
In the US, courts don't really have enforcement powers. They're also not separate from "the government". So I don't think your Australian judge was saying the same thing at all.
 
In the US, courts don't really have enforcement powers. They're also not separate from "the government". So I don't think your Australian judge was saying the same thing at all.
The basic idea of the constitution as a proscription of more than it needs to and a bill of rights doesn't work. The UK doesn't have either. The Constitution should be a minimalist document that creates a Parliament or Congress. Those bodies then create the laws. If people don't like them they will vote for them other team.
 
I was talking to a judge here in Australia. He said exactly the same thing. Governments make laws and the courts enforce them. Some off the biggest problems occur when our much smaller constitution has cryptic clauses like yours. The "can't impede free trade between states" clause has done some heavy lifting.

It's probably weirder than you think. At this point criticism of the commerce clause jurisprudence, when viewed in the context of US legal history, is a faint racist dog whistle.

The commerce clause gymnastics are because the Court didn't want to overrule some pretty bad cases following the civil war. After the civil war the northern dominated US passed the 13th-15th amendments known as the civil war amendments that were to end slavery, end racial restrictions on voting, and to protect civil rights by forcing the states to respect basic governmental equities. Laws such as the civil rights act of 1875 were enacted to enforce these amendments.

This was a brief time when the "Radical Republicans" were largely running the show and those guys were not fans of the south and advocated a very aggressive line towards rebuilding the south by empowering the former slaves. By the time the legal challenges to the laws came about it was the 1880s and this " reconstruction," along with the well being of the freed slaves, had been totally abandoned by the federal government to the point that slavery returned, albeit smaller and cloaked in technical legalities and enforced more by terrorist paramilitaries than directly by the states although these were usually the same people occasionally wearing bedsheets with eyes in them.

So, in the early 1880s there were a series of cases where the Supreme Court gave these amendments an absurdly narrow reading and threw out or defanged these new laws. Which arguably, along with the end of reconstruction, reversed the outcome of the civil war. They went on and in other contexts also defanged federal oversight of state governments. The south started again to embrace confederate imagery and symbols, further institutionalized using the criminal justice system as a means of enslavement, etc.

The commerce clause jurisprudence arose as a workaround to the Court dismantlement of federal oversight. First to justify the New Deal, which was at least clearly economic. Those cases then led the civil rights act of 1964 being upheld because, well, because racist business practices affected interstate commerce.

So, the civil rights act that significantly remedied the effects of treating human beings as economic assets was passed on the basis that racial discrimination hurt the economy. Which is crazy, and now allows reactionary nitwits to advocate that the Civil Rights Act needs to go, not because they are racists, just that they think the commerce clause is being read to broadly.

Which is how we get back to criticism of the commerce clause having a racist angle. Now, I may actually believe that the commerce clause is tortured, but the way the law has developed I have to consider that this position would have the legal effect of further eroding legal protections for the marginalized.
 
The basic idea of the constitution as a proscription of more than it needs to and a bill of rights doesn't work. The UK doesn't have either. The Constitution should be a minimalist document that creates a Parliament or Congress. Those bodies then create the laws. If people don't like them they will vote for them other team.
It's always fun for me to point out that Thomas Jefferson was an avowed enemy of judicial review. That the judiciary should have no say as to whether a legislative or executive act is constitutional. The bill of rights would be more of a moral statement than a legally enforceable set of rules.

It is wild that a significant portion of the people reading that react with some version of incredulity based on the idea that Jefferson's opinion would make the federal courts useless. When in reality determining the constitutionality of legislative/executive acts comes up in roughly zero percent of federal cases. Extremely rare.

We live so far down a different timeline that imagining the development of the US without judicial review is hard to even imagine, but in my opinion that's a healthier timeline. Judicial review has been a net negative.
 
The basic idea of the constitution as a proscription of more than it needs to and a bill of rights doesn't work. The UK doesn't have either. The Constitution should be a minimalist document that creates a Parliament or Congress. Those bodies then create the laws. If people don't like them they will vote for them other team.
The UK does have a constitution, it just isn't in a single document. However the constitution is easy to change if you have the support. That is the problem the US has, it is locked into a quarter millennium old document, while many other countries have an evolving constitution. The UK is a signatory of the European Human Rights Convention, one problem with the US legal system is rights often only apply to citizens within the US; there is not a legal concept of universal human rights. This is why the US can torture, imprison and kill non- citizens (and occasionally citizens) if they are kept outside of the US.
 
It's always fun for me to point out that Thomas Jefferson was an avowed enemy of judicial review. That the judiciary should have no say as to whether a legislative or executive act is constitutional. The bill of rights would be more of a moral statement than a legally enforceable set of rules.

It is wild that a significant portion of the people reading that react with some version of incredulity based on the idea that Jefferson's opinion would make the federal courts useless. When in reality determining the constitutionality of legislative/executive acts comes up in roughly zero percent of federal cases. Extremely rare.

We live so far down a different timeline that imagining the development of the US without judicial review is hard to even imagine, but in my opinion that's a healthier timeline. Judicial review has been a net negative.
There is a balance. Legalising or not abortion was a responsibility of the legislature, not the judiciary. In most countries the legislature enacted laws. It was moral cowardice by US legislature to rely on Roe vs. Wade. Supreme Courts do have to interpret law in common law systems. but fundamentally legislatures have to make the laws, even difficult ones.

In the UK appeal courts usually have three judges, appeals from the appeal court to the supreme court are usually heard by five or seven supreme court judges. Rarely an appeal of a supreme court hearing will be held this will be heard by nine or eleven supreme court judges. One problem the US supreme court has is a poorly defined system to allow the evolution of law with time.
 
The UK does have a constitution, it just isn't in a single document. However the constitution is easy to change if you have the support. That is the problem the US has, it is locked into a quarter millennium old document, while many other countries have an evolving constitution. The UK is a signatory of the European Human Rights Convention, one problem with the US legal system is rights often only apply to citizens within the US; there is not a legal concept of universal human rights. This is why the US can torture, imprison and kill non- citizens (and occasionally citizens) if they are kept outside of the US.
Consider this: The United States Senate violates equal protection principles in the constitution. However, the guarantee of equal protection only applies to the states no not a problem that the structure of the US government has been ruled unconstitutional when part of a state government.

Of course, most of these equal protection concepts are side doored into federal constitutional jurisprudence anyway. But not explicitly so because we drag the past around like an anchor.

(Many states used to have legislative houses with seats based on political subdivisions. Usually by county. These systems were thrown out based on their violating the equal protection clause as equal protection was held to include a "one person one vote" principle.)
 
Consider this: The United States Senate violates equal protection principles in the constitution. However, the guarantee of equal protection only applies to the states no not a problem that the structure of the US government has been ruled unconstitutional when part of a state government.

Of course, most of these equal protection concepts are side doored into federal constitutional jurisprudence anyway. But not explicitly so because we drag the past around like an anchor.

(Many states used to have legislative houses with seats based on political subdivisions. Usually by county. These systems were thrown out based on their violating the equal protection clause as equal protection was held to include a "one person one vote" principle.)
For a British subject, this is mostly non-comprehensible. This is my problem since this is a site referencing US law. I'll go off and try and work out what you are saying.
 

coverage of the recent leaks regarding the creation of the shadow docket seem relevant here
 
For a British subject, this is mostly non-comprehensible. This is my problem since this is a site referencing US law. I'll go off and try and work out what you are saying.
The US senate allocates two seats per state regardless of the population of a state. So a person in Wyoming has many, many times the voting influence of a person in California as both states get two senators despite California having way, way more people. Which is an obvious violation of basic principles of equality.

Many of the states used to have similar systems based on county. So in those states a person in a county with a very large city has way less voting influence in their state senate than one in a rural county. The US Supreme court has found these systems to violate the federal constitutions because of these principles of equality.

This inconsistency is explained by a bunch of technical reasons none of which in any way, shape or form squarely address the actual inequality of voting power.

One is that, in a technical sense, the US constitutional requirement of "equal protection of the law" does not apply to the US government itself. It only applies to the state governments. This to me is a bad thing to be fixed rather than a justification for inequality, but I'm like that.

Another is historical justification dating back to the the formation of the US and the states as separate sovereigns. Which I guess is a structural issue, but one to be overcome rather than wallowed in.

Sometimes people will try to justify that people in Wyoming should justly get like 75x the voting power as a person in California but usually it ends up sounding a bit white nationalist when scrutinized.
 
There is a balance. Legalising or not abortion was a responsibility of the legislature, not the judiciary. In most countries the legislature enacted laws. It was moral cowardice by US legislature to rely on Roe vs. Wade. Supreme Courts do have to interpret law in common law systems. but fundamentally legislatures have to make the laws, even difficult ones.
In the UK appeal courts usually have three judges, appeals from the appeal court to the supreme court are usually heard by five or seven supreme court judges. Rarely an appeal of a supreme court hearing will be held this will be heard by nine or eleven supreme court judges. One problem the US supreme court has is a poorly defined system to allow the evolution of law with time.
That bit there. The problem is not the courts or the supreme courts its congress not doing its job leaving courts holding a big bag of poo.
 
That bit there. The problem is not the courts or the supreme courts its congress not doing its job leaving courts holding a big bag of poo.
There is a cycle. Part of the reason they often can't is the courts.

Congress probably lacks the power to legalize abortion nationwide. Or so a court, and almost certainly the present Court, would rule. I don't think this court would be wild about using the commerce clause to defeat the very purpose most of them ended up where they are.

States are free to legalize or not, of course, but that completely sidesteps whether the right to reproductive healthcare is basic enough that an individual state lacks the power to restrict it as they please. The whole civil war thing supposedly decided that states were limited in their ability to decide these questions. However, Courts immediately hamstrung Congress as to direct legislation about civil rights to enforce the constitution that they can directly do very little. There has to be a jurisdictional justification and that usually means arguing it affects interstate commerce.

Arguing that legalizing abortion would require an formal amendment is circular as it assumes a default state that the right doesn't exist. Banning it is what would require an amendment, IMO.

Which leaves the courts as the only recourse. If congress had the power to speak to this sort of thing then we'd have had robust federal enforcement of civil rights since the 1870, any hard issues dealing with dead end confederates immediately come to a head, and that's a whole different world than the one we have now.
 

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