Merged Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[theprestige]

Over four days and still no one (except for me) is willing to say 'yea'. And those hypothetical kids keep on coming.

You already said 'yea' to closing the shops. Why are the kids still coming?

 

[Lithrael]

So, R-rated movies from the '80s?

I, um. Would be more upset by kiosks that showed, for example, Porky's or Sixteen Candles, than just plain happy vanilla porn TBH. Like, they are comedies and not instruction manuals the same way porn is porn and not an instruction manual, but they are gross in the same way gross porn is gross.

 

[Poem]

See, this is a perfect example of the way you refuse to make your arguments in good faith.

We already know you're not concerned about the kids seeing porn - you're concerned that anyone is seeing porn, that porn even exists in the first place. We know that you're making an emotional appeal to "the children" because you're not satisfied with the quality and reception of your argument against porn in general.

Not true at all - your framing is off.
One can be concerned about the effect porn is having on all of society. Highlighting the issue around kids as per this thread amplifies the ethical dilemma and sharpens the focus. I assumed the poll would get zero votes - that it stands (Tuesday 8pm GMT) at 7 to 1 in favour of keeping the venues open is pretty astonishing.

 

[Poem]

Apology accepted.

What I resent is you trying to take my good-faith expressions of my own concerns, and twist them into agreement with your own positions. You have thoroughly convinced me that you are not interested in a good faith discussion of the issues. You have even convinced me that you're not interested in anything as basic and pro-social as a good faith presentation of your own position on the issues.

You keep trying to force engagement on your own terms, instead of accepting that people will engage when and how they like. You keep trying to manufacture consensus where dissent prevails. You're effectively poisoning the discourse you're trying to promote.

I think you are confusing forceful argument about an extremely sensitive subject with what you describe above. If we take the alarm bells that have been ringing for some time now from many who work in the child-related professions - if we take them seriously then impatience and irritation are justifiable.

 

[Poem]

You already said 'yea' to closing the shops. Why are the kids still coming?

Given the poll on the other thread then it's academic to address this.

 

[Poem]

Yes. Nobody in the other thread is playing his reindeer games to his satisfaction, so Rudolph is hoping a change of venue will rehabilitate his appeal to analogy and "think of the children!" meta.

Now you're posting in bad faith. You can cynically frame it that way all you want...but what I see is a vote that facilitates the showing of porn to kids.

 

[Myriad]

I'm imagining a city where some street corners have adjoining temples, and some of those temples have statues depicting naked gods and/or goddesses, some of those acting as frisky as their various divine natures and offices imply. Some corners have adjoining public baths, where people bathe naked. Some corners adjoin homes or businesses that are decorated with erotic wall mosaics. Some corners adjoin clinics and hospitals where doctors and midwives assist women with pregnancies and births, sometimes including abortions. (Along with the nudity and sex, the city also encompasses a fair amount of visual depiction of violence—depictions of mythological murders, public martial arts exercises and contests, perhaps even as extreme as depictions of crucifixion.) Most of these would be in places intended primarily for adults, but no great effort is made to exclude all children from all of them all the time.

You happen to have the contact information for a nearby barbarian horde, which is willing on your say-so to attack the city, smash the temple statues, destroy the baths, burn all the medical books, and scatter every mosaic. You've requested they only damage the specific items you personally don't like, but you know how barbarian hordes act once they're in the swing of things. They're prone to leaving not one stone on top of another before they're through. On the other hand, you're pretty sure most of the population would flee in time to avoid any direct physical injury.

Poem, do you call the horde in or not? No evasions please. It's a simple yes or no.

 

[jimbob]

Merged the hypothetical poll into this thread

Posted By: jimbob

 

[Thermal]

Oh wtf, now we're in the rapey thread? Can somebody get a newb up to speed here? Is garden variety pornography (not violent stuff) rapey in here?

 

[Poem]

I'm imagining a city where some street corners have adjoining temples, and some of those temples have statues depicting naked gods and/or goddesses, some of those acting as frisky as their various divine natures and offices imply. Some corners have adjoining public baths, where people bathe naked. Some corners adjoin homes or businesses that are decorated with erotic wall mosaics. Some corners adjoin clinics and hospitals where doctors and midwives assist women with pregnancies and births, sometimes including abortions. (Along with the nudity and sex, the city also encompasses a fair amount of visual depiction of violence—depictions of mythological murders, public martial arts exercises and contests, perhaps even as extreme as depictions of crucifixion.) Most of these would be in places intended primarily for adults, but no great effort is made to exclude all children from all of them all the time.

You happen to have the contact information for a nearby barbarian horde, which is willing on your say-so to attack the city, smash the temple statues, destroy the baths, burn all the medical books, and scatter every mosaic. You've requested they only damage the specific items you personally don't like, but you know how barbarian hordes act once they're in the swing of things. They're prone to leaving not one stone on top of another before they're through. On the other hand, you're pretty sure most of the population would flee in time to avoid any direct physical injury.

Poem, do you call the horde in or not? No evasions please. It's a simple yes or no.

No.

 

[arthwollipot]

Oh, I get it now. Call me slow on the uptake if you like. The porn vendor on the street corner isn't a metaphor as was claimed, it's a hypothetical. Right. Allow me to counter with another hypothetical.

Suppose that on the street corner instead of a porn booth there is a man with a gun who will shoot whoever you like if you slip him $100. Would you shut him down?

What? It's just as ridiculous as the other hypothetical.

 

[Myriad]

No.

Thank you for the reply.

I suggest that if you examine your reasons for your answer, you will better understand the reasons for the answers you're getting in the poll.

The way you phrased your poll question, "should we shut it down?" makes it sound like there's some sterile automatic process that accomplishes that. Like, once your poll crosses some threshold with more than 50% agreement, someone pulls a lever somewhere and all the porn kiosks magically disappear. No one challenges the order in court on constitutional grounds, no one tries to disguise their kiosk as something else to stay in business, no one moves their entrance ten meters farther away from the corner (since the measure only applies to corner kiosks) or modifies their kiosk into a stall, pergola, or belvedere, and no one puts tiny pieces of opaque tape over the genitalia of their kiosk's content and claim that makes it no longer porn. No authority figure gets frustrated by all that obstruction and ends up overreaching, closing bookstores and motels and art galleries and homeless shelters because they kind of resemble the banned kiosks in various ways. No innocent librarians get held in prison for two weeks until the charges are dropped. No parents get their kids taken by protective services because a copy of The Joy of Sex is found in their corner garden shed where a kid might have come upon it.

In the real world, all those consequences and many more, expected and unexpected, happen. In the real world, declaring "shut it down!" is very similar to calling in the barbarian horde and hoping they don't do too much collateral damage.