If, however, consciousness were the basis for all things, then it would make a great deal of sense.
Belz...
Fiend God
Does that have any effect on the truth ?
In fact, since when do you care about logic ?
Oh, and which truth might you be referring to here?
Oh really? I find it a necessity when arguing against something you don't agree with.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
You are proceeding backwards here. The proposition that the universe has any purpose at all depends on faith. The faith that there is a purpose is not evidence of the purpose. That is the case even if it turns out that the faith is justified. You might well be entirely right, and when you get to heaven you'll bump into Emanuel Swedenborg and say with a chuckle, "I knew I was right all along," but William of Ockham* will still be able to stroll over and say "yes, but you argued it badly."
*That's assuming that his excommunication didn't stick.
Well, that kind of goes without saying, doesn't it? Unless all that tripe you've posted so far is, in fact, a mystical revelation, you have already committed yourself to the attempt. If this endeavor is impossible, or beyond your capacity, the failure is yours for initiating it, not ours for demanding that it be done with competence.
If you wish to know what it's like to be a dolphin, perhaps you should learn to swim like one? While I can assure you, they can swim circles around you and your logic any day of the week.
Belz...
Fiend God
Well... if-then is a logical structure that... wait a minute! You're supposed to know all this. Stop dodging! Answer the damn question.
Assuming there is no creator, would there be a need for a point to the universe ? Yes, or no ?
Belz...
Fiend God
There are several ?
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
Are you saying, then, that Aquinas is the ne plus ultra of theology, and had all the answers because his logic was good? Ockham was also a formidable logician (who in case you had'nt figured it out yet, came after Aquinas and was aware of his, and Aristotle's work), and yet he found reason to contradict Aquinas's logic. Logic is only as good as the premises from which it starts.
Faith does not have to be blind. This in fact is Occam's, as well as just about anyone else's mistake.
That explains why he would believe such a thing, if he once belonged to "the Church."*That's assuming that his excommunication didn't stick.
I am not required to prove this to anyone, merely repeat those things which have led me to believe such a thing.
Exactly.
Belz...
Fiend God
Knowing that other people can, and will, merely repeat the same objections, wouldn't it be wiser, and much more effective, to actually try to prove it ?
Yes, but when you have a genuine appreciation for something, much in the way a skeptic loves his skepticism perhaps? learning becomes much easier. This is why I go poo poo all over you and your skepticism.
Well I suppose, to the extent that it's capable of processing information. I don't know that a computer knows what it knows, however.
Yes, I believe so. Everything has a point of reference. Even we do, with respect to the Big Bang.
Belz...
Fiend God
Iacchus said:
A skeptic loves his skepticism ? I don't think you know the first thing about skepticism. It all comes back to the searsh for the truth. But instead of making up explanations, we try to FIND them.
Iacchus said:
That's irrelevant. If it's programmed to think that it knows what it knows, then it will act just like you'd expect it to act if it really knew what it knows. So, then, how can you claim that is any different for us ? Are we programmed to think we know what we know ? And, if so, what need would there be for a spiritual element ?
There, there, Iacchus. We're not talking about points of reference. You said "what's the point ?" as in "what's the universe's purpose ?". I ask again:
Assuming there is no creator, would there be a need for an innate purpose to the universe ? Yes or no ?
No.
The internal processes of my body are "programmed" to do all sorts of things behind my back if you will. But, this is not a part of what I consciously know. Even so, there is an awareness factor that exists in all things. How so? It is the basis of all that exists. Everything has a spiritual element (of knowing) in other words.
You seem to be suggesting a sense of arbitrariness about it all, and I say no.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
This is why I go poo poo all over you and your skepticism.
Yes, I've been telling you it's poo poo all along!
You folks stand for nothing.Yes, I've been telling you it's poo poo all along!
Tricky
Briefly immortal
Of course, since you have often demonstrated that you belive "nothing" means "a special kind of something", your statement sort of loses its steam.
Since, as you admit, logic is only as good as its premises, then your logic must be the most worthless kind in existence, as you have never once provide an ounce of evidence for your premises. But of course, you don't understand (and refuse to learn) logic either, so I guess the lack of demonstrable premises doesn't bother you much.