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Does Matter Really Exist?

Oh, for crying out loud..

This is happening like clockwork.. "Another post on the nature of matter and how it proves the existance of a supernatural being and will change our perception of reality forever?..That reminds me, I need to change the batteries in my smoke detector..."

bad news: Even if God does exist, it won't change anything about our perception of the universe. What are people expecting?

"Okay, this apple is red"
"Hold on, GOD made that apple"
"uh..okay..This apple is blue"

Ain't gonna happen.

But, heck. I'm willing to give it a fair turn. Scientific Method, taken from: http://www.inquiringminds.org/education/definitions-scientific-method.html

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon.
2. Formulation of a hypothesis.
3. Testing the hypothesis.
4. Test by others.

So, what's our step one here. What Phenomenon are we working on here?

Trifikas
 
Iacchus said:
No, why do you assume that I know any less about God than you do?
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I don't know anything about god. I have always assumed that our knowledge was par.

Why do you, and others like you, assume that nothing is known about God?
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"Known"? Don't you mean "believed"? God is the realm of faith and not knowledge.

Isn't this in effect what you have said?
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In effect I'm saying that there is no demonstrable, objective or empirical evidence that god exists. In effect I'm saying that one person's belief is just as valid as anothers. If someone wants to worship a fire breathing dragon or an invisible pink unicorn that is fine. However, if I ask for a REASON to believe in a fire breathing dragon or an invisible pink unicorn then I shouldn't get a load of grief.

Iacchus
And yet you turn around and have the gall to say ...

Perhaps you shouldn't assume what others believe.
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Please to tell me when I ever assumed what you believed?

So, why do you continue to promote such a fallacy?
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WHAT FALLACY? Please stop this. Slow down, take a deep breath, re-read the thread. You are making unfounded assumptions about me. Again, please stop.

And, before you consider asking me to provide any evidence for, whatever reason must be deemed empirical, consider what I just said.
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I don't know where you are getting this? I ask you to stop. Please address directly what I say and not invent things in your head.

1.) I don't assume to know what you know or what you believe.

2.) I'm perfectly happy with anyone believing in god. If you choose to believe in god that is fine with me.

3.) Max Planck's conclusion doesn't follow from his premises.

4.) At best his words that you post constitute an argument from authority.

5.) Many if not most of Max's peers disagree with him. (Please see Project Steve and the Appeal to Authority )

6.) You have not provided me any reason as to why I should believe in god.

These are my positions. If you have a problem with them then address them but please stick to them and not straw men.
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, but how can you explain such reasoning if, God does exist?
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{sigh} Explain WHAT reasoning? What the sam hell are you talking about?

Are you telling us all that you don't know God exists but, that it's okay to assume that He doesn't anyway?
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  1. I'm saying that I don't know if fire breathing dragons exist.
  2. I'm saying that I don't know if invisible pink unicorns exist.
  3. I'm saying that I don't know if fairies, leprechauns and pot's of gold at the end of the rainbow exist.
  4. I'm saying that one belief is as good as another and until someone gives me REASON to believe then I'm not going to and I damn well hope that is okay. I'm not living in a theocracy for Ed's sake.
You see, you would much rather assume that I don't know what I'm talking about.
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NO, NO, NO!!!!!

This is an invention in your head. I'm not interested in making any such judgments. I only care if you can provide me or anyone else reason why I should change my mind about beliefs and superstitions. What you believe is your choice. I respect that. This is not what this discussion is about. As I have said, I like philosophy. I don't mind such discussions. Just keep in mind that at the end of the day there is no practical application to such musings.

Look Iacchus, you started a thread with a post that contained an assumption. I'm challenging that assumption.

Do you have any reason why I should change my mind? That is all that I have asked.
 
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Iacchus, one could easily make the observation that Randfan's first "assumption" above is termed an assumption out of politeness; more accurately, it would be termed a "conclusion" based on the level of knowledge you have demonstrated in your posts. If we, as his second quote suggests, assume nothing about your belief, but instead base our understanding of your beliefs purely on what you have written here, we can easily conclude that you have no more knowledge about god than anyone else does.

And frankly, I am being charitable in that conclusion.
 
Iacchus said:
Is this what he's really saying? I'm not so sure. I think what he's saying is that matter is the extension of something else, the matrix of which we cannot begin to comprehend, unless we had some understanding that the supernatural exists. In other words, whatever it is that gives rise to matter (its form and structure) exists on the other side of it.
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Translation: "Wouldn't it be neat if the mind was the source of existence ? Well, wouldn't it ?? Guys ?"
 
Iacchus said:
Wow, and in the very same post. You don't even realize what you just said. That's amazing!
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There is nothing that can be "known" about god. There is plenty to be "believed". I will repeat myself, god is not the realm of knowledge. God is the realm of faith.

To be fair I did say, "I don't assume to know what you know or what you believe." However, since one cannot know anything about god then it is safe to assume that you and I both don't know anything about god. If that is cause for contention then let me restate the above.

I don't assume to know what you know (except that which I understand is unknowable) or what you believe.

Bottom line, belief and knowledge are two differnt things. If you say you KNOW god lives or that you know any specific properties or atributes about god then I can't prove that you don't. Absent any evidence to the contrary I can only assume that you don't. I concede that I could be wrong.

My thanks to Mercutio and bruto.
 
bruto said:
Assuming you know nothing is not assuming you believe nothing. Is it possible that you actually cannot grasp that distinction?
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And to assume that I know nothing is strictly a matter of belief on your part. You have no idea what I know.
 
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Iacchus said:
And to assume that I know nothing is strictly a matter of belief on your. You have no idea what I know.
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But to conclude that you know nothing is strictly a matter of being swayed by the evidence of your posts. If we have no idea what you know, it is because you have not yet demonstrated this knowledge. You evade, avoid being pinned down, and when you do make statements of fact, they are more often than not in opposition to evidence. (I can give examples of your lack of understanding of evolution and natural selection, your lack of understanding of the process of dreaming, your lack of understanding of brain processes, your lack of understanding of the dimensions of time-space, and your lack of understanding of the logical fallacies you employ despite multiple corrections. If you need more, I am sure some could be dredged up.)

Again, if we have no idea what you know, there is a simple explanation.
 
Iacchus said:
I know what I know. If you don't believe this, then how can you tell me otherwise?
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What, then, is it that you do know? I believe that you know what you know; that statement is trivially true for everyone from the smartest to the dumbest. X knows what X knows.

So...what is it that you do know? Care to share it with us? With experience comes...well, experience. You have not yet demonstrated that experience has blessed you with "knowing"; too many things your experience has led you to believe run counter to the evidence the rest of the world has experienced.

So, please. Enlighten us, so we don't misrepresent your knowledge again. What is it that you do know?
 
Iacchus said:
And to assume that I know nothing is strictly a matter of belief on your part. You have no idea what I know.
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The point is, that you do not have any knowledge of any attributes or properties of god. You have beliefs but not knowledge.

If knowledge were possible there would be few if any atheists.
 
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