Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

[Thomas]

I don't care what you think. Spiderman can beat up Hulk any day!

Oh, wrong thread? Well, spot the difference.

 

[Iacchus]

Christians tend to argue that god's existence and activities give life meaning and purpose (M&P). I wonder if they extend this idea to their belief in hell. Would life lack M&P if eternal punishment didn't exist?

What the hell? ...

So, do you think punishment serves as an effective deterrent against those who do "unacceptable" things? What about the "living hell" commonly referred to as "going to prison?"

 

[Atlas]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

How does one attain God through this process?

[/QUOTE]I do like this forum because of questions like this that just stop me cold for a moment. Here is an event that spans the spiritual and physical worlds like very few others. It comes down through a tradition began by the Son of God himself.

There is something in the notion of cannibalism which seems to be a parallel. Some cannibals take their enemies spirit power into themselves through the consumption. It's a little different because they are the masters, they have claim on the spirit because they've conquered and taken the life.

I've also seen video footage of eskimoos pulling a walrus up through the ice after spearing it, and cutting out it's heart and sharing between themselves in ritualistic consumption on the ice. The walrus is as much a god to that tribe of eskimoo as the buffalo was to the native American Indian.

So different cultures do have rituals involvings consuming the flesh of their god or other spirits. One thing about food is that it makes you strong - compared to not having food, that is.

It's funny, after watching a Popeye cartoon as a little kid, I could eat a little bit of canned spinich (I really hated that stuff). My brothers and I would always fight one another afterwards growling more like the Hulk than Popeye. We were made stronger by the idea of magic food - at least we sure thought so. And the Eucharist was no different. If you really believed you were taking Jesus into your body it had profound psychological effects.

 

[Atlas]

... So, do you think punishment serves as an effective deterrent against those who do "unacceptable" things? What about the "living hell" commonly referred to as "going to prison?"

Prison deters criminal activity in the general population by keeping the prisoners outside the general population, something death does even more effectively than prison. So Hell is superfluous as a deterrent. Just leave the corpse rotting away in the grave and the soul dead and rotting with it.

Prison time also allows the prisoner to reform and reenter society having "paid his debt". Hell is not set up for that either. It's strictly a center for cruel and unusual punishment that is to last forever and removes all hope from the damned.

It's interesting Iacchus but aren't you also damned by Christians as a heretic and numerologist - some of the "unacceptable" things deserving of eternal punishment.

 

[Iacchus]

Prison deters criminal activity in the general population by keeping the prisoners outside the general population, something death does even more effectively than prison. So Hell is superfluous as a deterrent. Just leave the corpse rotting away in the grave and the soul dead and rotting with it.

Superfluous? You don't believe there aren't varying "levels" of hell?

Prison time also allows the prisoner to reform and reenter society having "paid his debt". Hell is not set up for that either. It's strictly a center for cruel and unusual punishment that is to last forever and removes all hope from the damned.

Ever hear the expression, "Lock em' up and throw away the key?" Yes, the prison system can be very much like this too. In fact it has, for those who have become incorrigible.

It's interesting Iacchus but aren't you also damned by Christians as a heretic and numerologist - some of the "unacceptable" things deserving of eternal punishment.

And just because I don't go by such an un-Godly label as "Christian," I don't have a right to believe in hell? It must not be "my hell" that they're referring to then.

 

[Atlas]

Superfluous? You don't believe there aren't varying "levels" of hell?

I don't know if you understand the meaning of superfluous. Hell is not needed. It's an extravagant extra that serves no good or even necessary purpose. If God wants to reward people with heaven - Fine. He can and should hold those He loves close. I got no problem with that. Leave the rest dead. Isn't that punishment enough for a being who is all good? What purpose is served by eternal torment?

Ever hear the expression, "Lock em' up and throw away the key?" Yes, the prison system can be very much like this too. In fact it has, for those who have become incorrigible.

But death is exactly that lock down. The key has been thrown. Hell is gratuitous.

And just because I don't go by such an un-Godly label as "Christian," I don't have a right to believe in hell? It must not be "my hell" that they're referring to then.

Hey spell it out. Hell has a common understanding. When you refer to a hell, your hell, you should clarify at least that you aren't talking about the same thing everybody else is. I know clarity is not something you aspire to but it's something that aids communication and understanding.

I don't know why you would believe in your hell. Who is your God to make such a place for you. Why would you love a god who threatens you with it? Tell me of your home world, oosul.

 

[elliotfc]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

Now the basic problem is that God is unatainable. Hence wanting God is a sickness, a neurosis. Not even Freud can help you there. The very definition of pleasure requires that there be pain--don't mean to get dual on you. So how could you have God (ultimate pleasure) without pain?

I don't believe that God is unattainable, so your point doesn't mean anything to me. If it makes you feel better to label me as neurotic go right ahead, it's a vacuous opinion. I think we're talking past each other. The only question I have left is why you'd want to engage someone who is beyond help, or, at least beyond the help of Freud. I don't think I engage neurotics (you may think think that I do, but we obviously disagree about who is neurotic and who isn't). At least in the instance of me, you are engaging someone who you believe to be neurotic. That's kind of interesting I guess.

Re: pain/pleasure...that's why I don't use those words. You do. But again, we're just talking past each other.

As long as there are imperfect choosers who can reject God, of course there will be alternate (if only theoretical) states which would enable words like pain/pleasure to be meaningful for us. If we didn't exist (or, if no imperfect choosers existed), neither would duality. Duality is contingent upon the existence of creators who are less than perfect than God. It's not an eternal condition.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

I've been trying to decipher elliotfc's post here.

Are you saying that of you do not worship God, then, by default, you worship Satan?

Or am I misunderstanding?

Apologies if I've already responded to this...

Worship, in the conscious sense of the word, can be willfully directed, and understood to be willfully directed, towards what the person would define. A person may choose to not engage in such activity, and thus that person would not, by default, worship Satan.

On an unconscious level I might suggest that all humans worship themselves, but I'd never suggest that people who don't worship God must worship Satan.

I don't think it's as simple as you think it might be (you either worship God or you worship Satan), and if I implied that the fault is probably mine.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

For non-Muslims, the reality about whether it's 72 virgins or 72 grapes according to the holy book is not as important about what the suicide terrorists are thinking. See, if the suicide terrorist thinks it's 72 virgins, that, to me, is more significant than what the book may or may not say, since I know nothing about Arabic and any nuances or varying meanings of the words.

Or, we should infiltrate Islamofascist sites and inform them that they are really grapes, something proactive like that.

But maybe they're as much into grapes as they are virgins. Honestly, I'd take a fat grape over a fat virgin anyday of the week...(no offense to fat people, who probably don't want a scrawny guy like me anyways).

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Even with today's politically correct Hell, most Christians agree that Hell will be a really bad thing - even if there are no literal flames.

Agreed. But that's we also think that communion with God is a really good thing. If you don't think that's a really good thing, maybe Hell isn't as bad as it would be for a Christian.

I'm not trying to say that Hell is the paradise for people who want to reject God absolutely. Rather, I think it is only better, or good, relatively speaking. I think that all souls have the ability to put a happy face, even on the worst situation. This doesn't mean that people in Hell are thinking how great they have it, but it's like Lucifer saying it's better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.

So suppose I say to someone, "do as I say or I will punch you in the nose", and they don't do as I say and I punch them in the nose.

Is it his fault that he got punched in the nose because he freely chose to not to do as I said?

No, of course not.

Are you relating hell to being punched in the nose? If you are, that's not how I personally see it. I see it as wish fullfillment. If you want to be cut off from God, you'll be allowed to be cut off from God. So, the way I'd relate it is if someone actually wanted to be punched in the nose, than they could be. But I don't think that's how you meant it.

You may not be as interested in my perspective on Hell as you are in a more classical understanding of Hell. I don't think that the punishment idea of Hell is totally out of whack. It may be helpful for someone people, just as reward/punishment is helpful, in general, in our society. Whether it's not most sophisticated or rational way of understanding things is besides the point, since we're all very different and, like it or not, reward/punishment is pervasive and will always be pervasive in our daily lives. I don't think a society without reward/punishment could exist, and it's a natural extension to imagine the afterlife in the same way.

God's way of punishing us (in my opinion) is to let us punish ourselves.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

So...what I'm getting here from the theists is that Hell really doesn't give their life any more Meaning or Purpose.


Or once again, am I in the dark?

You could build a continuum out of Christians on this one, with people on one end, the other end, and every where in between.

At some level...everything that is objectively true gives my life meaning. Look at it this way. I believe in Free Will. I believe that Hell is an extension of Free Will. Since Free Will gives my life meaning, an extension of Free Will will also give my life meaning. In that way it does give my life meaning. But I don't think about Hell unless somebody brings it up, so it really doesn't give meaning to my life. I'm having it both ways, see?

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

What would xianity be without hell? Doesn't the concept need hell to be viable?



That's a lovely xian sentiment.

Yeah it is.

God, how many Christians today refuse to believe in Hell exactly? I'm surprised that you have a hard time understanding that Christianity doesn't need Hell when so many Christians don't have the belief in Hell. Yes, I know you're not a Christian. But you have to recognize that the two ideas are compatible (Christianity/nohell) because they, frankly, are compatible to many Christians.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

You're right. We might as well believe in this

You're being silly. You're offering extreme examples in response, as if anything in between is not possible or likely. I'm not telling you what to believe in making my point, your extreme examples obscures what I think is just true. Some scientists believe things that are beyond testing. Don't hide from that by throwing nonsense in my face. Or do, and then I won't take you seriously, which may be what you want, I dunno.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Point taken. Maybe the real reason for this thread was Interesting Ian's implicit assumption in another recent thread that you need an afterlife to have a meaningful life.

Not if you're an ubermensch. Meaning, I think you could take a person who doesn't believe in an afterlife, and continually berate them, telling them how all of their opinions and beliefs don't mean a damn thing because they will be dead and it will all be nothing. But if you're an ubermensch you can rise above that and create subjective meaning. And there's nothing wrong with that at all, and I'd say it's an admirable thing to do, if the alternative is just blind depression when faced with certain oblivion.

Now, if the debate was that you needed an afterlife to have an *objectively* meaningful life...I'd have to think about that one some more. I suspect yes...or, I think you'd have to have some eternal mind at the very least. Meaning, there could be no afterlife for us at all, but there could be an eternal mind which transcends materialism who is influenced by our lives (it may lead him to create a universe in a different way, or something).

But Tertullian wasn't a kid when he became a Christian. See, I don't want to hold you or any Christian responsible for some weird theologian who lived long time ago and who even might be considered as a heretic. But your excuses don't sound that convincing.

Excuses for Tertulllian? He definitely had some views that are specifically labelled as heretical. I'm sure he wasn't all bad, and I'm his worst writings only reflect a part of his personality. Yes, I could see him at his worst. I don't seem his at either his best or his worth. He was of his times, and they were times of persecution and stress and savagery and all that. I don't think that .001% of Christians know anything about Tertullian these days so he's just, to me, an interesting footnote. I could condemn him harshly for maybe enjoying the idea that his enemies would suffer eternally...it's an extreme take on absolute justice, and he was self-righteous. That flew better back then, and it doesn't fly in our society today.

I don't know whether such an urge is "natural". Perhaps education and cultural environment might have a saying too?

Everything that goes into the human experience has a say in it. When I say natural, I mean natural for humans, and not other animals. I'm trying to think if there's ever been a time in the organized (civilized?) human experience where the sentiment that some people needed to be punished (whether children or criminals) didn't exist. It is just a though exercise, and I tend to think humans have always had the desire to see trangressors punished. Whether humans should get past that desire (like I'm sure many individuals have) is another question.

Or, perhaps, there is a hell, and it fulfills an emotional need of many people per design, since God created both hell and our hearts.

If so, it would be a peripheral effect. Yes, God created hell to *house* those who would reject him (that's my definition), that's the important thing. It may or may not fulfill an emotional need, but God did not create it for that reason, and I don't think it matters to God whether it does or doesn't fulfilly an emotional need of some humans. Or, it would matter to God, but only if the person obsessed over it or something.

Or there is no hell, but some people would want it to exist.

Yes, if there is no hell, some people would want it to exist (of course they wouldn't think there was no hell).

Nevertheless, I would prefer if there would be no hell — not because I am in terror I might end there; I am thinking more along the lines of what I would do, would I be omnipotent.

Does God need a hell? Does hell give God's life meaning and purpose? [/B]

These are the questions that I consider to be crucial.

God needs to allow Free Will to work even AFTER WE ARE DEAD. That's why he *needs* a hell, for it would enable Free Will (the choice to reject God eternally) in the afterlife.

Hell gives Free Will meaning and purpose. I don't think the question, then, is whether or not Hell gives God's life meaning and purpose, but whether or not Free Will (and everything that it enables, from love to hate) gives God's life meaning and purpose. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

-Elliot

 

[Iacchus]

I don't know if you understand the meaning of superfluous. Hell is not needed. It's an extravagant extra that serves no good or even necessary purpose. If God wants to reward people with heaven - Fine. He can and should hold those He loves close. I got no problem with that. Leave the rest dead. Isn't that punishment enough for a being who is all good? What purpose is served by eternal torment?

It's all about the dynamics of one's choice. One cannot possibly "choose" God, without an alternative. Otherwise there is nothing which makes heaven viable.

But death is exactly that lock down. The key has been thrown. Hell is gratuitous.

God is gratuitous.

Hey spell it out. Hell has a common understanding. When you refer to a hell, your hell, you should clarify at least that you aren't talking about the same thing everybody else is. I know clarity is not something you aspire to but it's something that aids communication and understanding.

We are ruled by what we love, even in hell.

I don't know why you would believe in your hell. Who is your God to make such a place for you. Why would you love a god who threatens you with it? Tell me of your home world, oosul.

"Seek and ye shall find" ... Which is to say, we all see what we want to see, even if it's contrary to what God wishes. This is the only reason why hell exists, to keep the bad segregated and, from tormenting the good. So instead, they're allowed to torment each other which, out of the shear love of torment -- what we might call blaming others for our problems -- at least in the beginning -- they can conceive of nothing better to do. This is what "my hell" is about anyway. And, it's completely non-denominational.

 

[jan]

But maybe they're as much into grapes as they are virgins. Honestly, I'd take a fat grape over a fat virgin anyday of the week...(no offense to fat people, who probably don't want a scrawny guy like me anyways).

I have some trouble to read sura 55 or 56 with "haura" as grapes (it doesn't really fit, but who am I to decide). The number 72 is not mentioned in the Quran, as far as I remember.

I don't think that there are many people who are willing to kill themselves and others to be rewarded with 72 virgins. I would guess the main source of motivation lies elsewhere. But I am unable to see insight the mind of a suicide bomber, so it's just guesswork.





elliotfc, I may perhaps address your longer post tomorrow. That other thread (Unforgivable Sin) drained all eloquence out of me for today.

 

[elliotfc]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

How does one attain God through this process?

I rarely submit links to answer questions, maybe once for every 100 questions I answer. This will be one of those times, because I think the best thing to do is get the scoop on the Real Presence directly from the church, and not me. Also they'll give a better explanation than I would.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/dpp/realpresence.htm

My post was not about calling people names. It was about describing a contradiction. Wanting God is a neurosis. Why? Because the individual who wants God or Heaven as those concepts have been defined, wants something that does not exist.

*As they have been defined*...

By saying that phrase, you are speaking to working definitions that you apply to the neurotics in question. I'm going to assume (more on that later, as you bring it up at the end of this post) that your working definitions do not correspond with the working definitions of most Christians, so that takes much of the sting out of the point you are making.

Much ado about nothing. Does it matter if you think most, or all, Christians, are neurotic? I shouldn't have taken it as personally as I did, so I'll let it go.

For example, look at “God is love.” How could you possibly want love without pain.

Ummm...by simply wanting love without pain? People want all sorts of things...just by wanting them. Now, you may not want love without pain, but why can't others?

It is interesting that you appeal to fear of death here in retorting to my comment. It is that fear of coming to an end that has created this notion of God and Heaven.

I disagree with your opinion, but we can agree to use the "appeal to fear of death" on each other, OK? And if you insist otherwise (you're not really afraid of death), I'll insist otherwise too. OK? My fault for stepping into this, when I usually, as a rule, try to avoid fear of death arguments, sometimes I slip.

That is the way I see it. You may not even admit this to yourself.

You've bang on here. Yes, it is the way you see it. And no, I don't admit things to myself that I know are not true.

So this fear has created God and Heaven and yet you expect God and Heaven to take away this fear. Do you see the contradiction there?

Since I REJECT the first premise, of course I see the contradiction. Duh.

So even what anyone says about God is questionable—and you’re telling us that communion brings us closer to God!

I am only saying what I don't think I can argue against! Can you question anything that I say about God? Surely you can. Therefore, anything that anyone says about God is, in fact, questionable! Right?

So of course you can question the Eucharist. I was acknowledging that point. Most Catholics don't even believe in the Real Presence.

Why not simply having bread and wine in a bar?

Mass can be celebrated anywhere. You need a priest, and it has to be consecrated, but it could happen in a bar.

I guess they both give you a good fix.

Mental state/expectation/belief are the key ingredients. Meaning, I'm sure I'd get more out of a Catholic Mass than you would.

Then please tell us how one should define Heaven and God and the reason people want both if not in terms of love and hate, pleasure and pain. Simply if there were no apparent benefit in wanting God, people wouldn’t want God.

First, I can, and have, offered by beliefs and opinions about God and Heaven and Hell. Not once have I told you how you should define them. Nor do I want to, so, I'll politely refrain from telling you how to define God/Heaven/Hell. It's on you to define them in your own way...and you do...and I reserve the right to take issue with your definitions.

Second, "if not in terms of love" is something that you came up with. I never mentioned that phrase.

Third, why shouldn't there be a benefit in wanting God? There's benefits in wanting all sorts of things in life, why not God? Should we do it *solely* for the benefit? That is independent of whether or not there is a benefit. Like, if there's a reward for turning in a murderer, that is independent of whether or not a person should turn in a murderer. The reward is a nice touch though, no?

Also, why have you interpreted my comments to mean that I do not believe in God? I have not taken a position here on that issue.

You got me there, sorry about that. It's an assumption I made based on the prepoderence of people on the board, and the type of responses I typically get from people. Based on your response, I made that conclusion.

By the way, do you believe in God? If you don't want to answer that, I respect that. From now on I'll not assume anything about whether or not you believe in God.

-Elliot

 

[Robin]

No, of course not.

Are you relating hell to being punched in the nose? If you are, that's not how I personally see it. I see it as wish fullfillment. If you want to be cut off from God, you'll be allowed to be cut off from God. So, the way I'd relate it is if someone actually wanted to be punched in the nose, than they could be. But I don't think that's how you meant it.

I can point you to centuries of mainstream scholarship (including recent stuff) that say Hell is infinitely worse than a punch in the nose. C.S Lewis who is considered to have been a moderate and intellectual Christian painted it as maddeningly horrific.

In my model I give the guy two choices - do as I say or be punched in the nose. He might believe that being punched in the nose is preferable to doing as I say in which case it is better, or good, relatively speaking to be punched in the nose. If he chooses the punch in the nose then he is allowed it. As I see it Christianity defines God as offering such a binary. How can it be wish fulfillment? I don't sit and wish for an unpleasant eternity any more than my friend wishes for a punch in the nose.

But how many people want - as you say - to be "cut off from God"? Satanists maybe but they are a trivial minority - genuine Satanists are an even tinier minority. People who believe in a loving God generally want to accept God. Otherwise people don't believe in such a God. Presumably an infinitely merciful God will not be consigning people who genuinely don't believe in the Christian God to Hell. So who is in Hell? And where are the people that genuinely don't believe in the Christian God?

You may not be as interested in my perspective on Hell as you are in a more classical understanding of Hell.

I am not so much interested in the classical understanding of Hell than what might be considered the contemporary mainstream understanding of Hell. But I am also interested in your understanding of this concept.

 

[triadboy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does hell give life meaning and purpose?

Yeah it is.

God, how many Christians today refuse to believe in Hell exactly? I'm surprised that you have a hard time understanding that Christianity doesn't need Hell when so many Christians don't have the belief in Hell. Yes, I know you're not a Christian. But you have to recognize that the two ideas are compatible (Christianity/nohell) because they, frankly, are compatible to many Christians.

-Elliot

Honestly - this is brand new to me. I've never heard of xians who don't believe in Hell (and I assume a devil). Please point me to a link or book that explains how this works. It must be fascinating!

 

[Thomas]

I would also like to see how xians can renounce critical thinking without the threat of eternal hellfire.