Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[Belz...]

Compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery.

Again, I fail to see how you can compare the ownership of human beings with the state-funded training of future workers. They WILL be paid for those years of school.

As for the compulsory part, that also applies to prisons and a host of other activities. Since when do we, especially as children, get to control our whole lives ?

 

[Belz...]

We agree here.

Did you even read what Garrison wrote ?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

School is not unpaid labor though.

The 'labor' of the children is 'paid' in the form of a well rounded education that would be impossible to obtain for the vast majority of the population. Either because they would be too poor to pay for a private school or because they would rather invest their money into something besides their child's education.
Those that CAN afford education above and beyond the minimum norm set by the government are free to do so, provided the minimum nor is met.

This system benefits the society as well as this way its possible to get the best out of a far greater pool of talent than previously possible. How many Einstein's died before they were 14 years old labouring in the mines, on the land or in some factory because they never got the chance to show their intellect? How many Mozart's never got to compose because 'art doesn't give us a next meal, now get back to working'?

Sure the system isn't perfect, there are still too many ways for parents to obstruct their children. There is still a strong bias towards those with money taking all the best teachers, but at least things are better than they ever were.

Yes this system removes some freedoms. The freedom to exploit your children for your own monetary gain. The freedom to neglect your children's education among them.

In all of your post's Malcom, I still have not seen how your alternative to the current education system will ensure that as many children as possible will get the broadest education as possible.
In your system I have not seen any way to motivate neglectful parents, nor any real suggestion how poor parents would be able to give their children an education that is at least comparable to the education a child of rich parents would get.
What provisions does your system have to prevent a significant, if not majority, of the children getting a very poor to no education at all?

 

[Belz...]

School is not unpaid labor though.

Well the problem with Malcolm's point is that it's neither unpaid nor labor. It certainly pays down the road, and in money, no less, and it's not 'labour' in any serious sense of the word. It's sitting on your ass, listening to a teacher, memorising and understanding the stuff you're being told, and demonstrating that you did.

 

[A'isha]

Well the problem with Malcolm's point is that it's neither unpaid nor labor. It certainly pays down the road, and in money, no less, and it's not 'labour' in any serious sense of the word. It's sitting on your ass, listening to a teacher, memorising and understanding the stuff you're being told, and demonstrating that you did.

It is also the exact same thing as what happens in the homeschools and private schools that Malcolm has said he prefers, in fact. Homeschooling and private schooling is just as much "unpaid labor" and coercive for the child as public schooling is.

The only difference he has been able to identify is that in public schools such "unpaid labor" is coerced from children by the nebulous forces of "the State", while in private and home schools this "unpaid labor" is coerced from children by parents. This ignores the fact that public school children are not dragged from their homes and forced onto buses by jackbooted government thugs, but by their parents, and that from the child's perspective there is no difference between being forced to get on the bus to go to public school every day, being forced to get in mom's car to be dropped off at Catholic school every day, or being forced to sit in a home classroom doing the math textbook problems that dad assigns every day.

Or, put another way, Malcolm has yet to explain why his misleadingly-edited Einstein quote about "the effects of compulsion on motivation" that he uses as a criticism public schools that children are forced to attend by "the State" does not apply to private schools and home schools that children are forced to attend by their parents.

 

[Amazer]

In all of your post's Malcom, I still have not seen how your alternative to the current education system will ensure that as many children as possible will get the broadest education as possible.
In your system I have not seen any way to motivate neglectful parents, nor any real suggestion how poor parents would be able to give their children an education that is at least comparable to the education a child of rich parents would get.
What provisions does your system have to prevent a significant, if not majority, of the children getting a very poor to no education at all?

My read from Malcolm's post is that his alternative isn't to have as many children as possible receive the broadest education possible. Quite the opposite.

He seems quite willing to to sacrifice a good number of children in the name of his ideology.

 

[RandFan]

I agree.Title = ___
Author = ___.

The sources in wiki are sourced. I dealt with that. And your source for your definition of "slavery"? How is it that we can work with your definition absent proof by dictionary but you cannot.

Oh, and:...

Again, ANTPogo dealt with that.

But I noted your dodge and again failure to address my premises.

 

[RandFan]

Since Randfan won't follow links to adverse information, here:...

I will answer your questions but not if you continue to patronize me. If you want your questions answered then try civility.

 

[bruto]

My read from Malcolm's post is that his alternative isn't to have as many children as possible receive the broadest education possible. Quite the opposite.

He seems quite willing to to sacrifice a good number of children in the name of his ideology.

Of course if you define harm as not being any worse off than you started (as it appears Malcolm does) then his criteria are well met by illiterate newsboys, crop pickers and factory workers. They don't need any stinking education. They can hire someone to read them the paper while they work.

 

[jimbob]

I will answer your questions but not if you continue to patronize me. If you want your questions answered then try civility.

It might actually be difficult finding a statistics textbook describing how a single anecdote is not statistically useful, as it is too basic a concept.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Also, why would a private institutions teach basic understanding of how the government of their country, or legal system worked when what they need is someone to work the widgit machine?

Why would the party in control of government schools give equal time to opposition parties? Political control of school threatens democracy.
George Orwell
Review of Russia under Soviet Rule by N. de Basily
Essays ( Knopf, 2002).

The terrifying thing about modern dictatorships is that they are something entirely unprecedented. Their end cannot be foreseen. In the past, every tyranny was sooner or later overthrown, or at least
resisted because of "human nature," which as a matter of course desired liberty. But we cannot be at all certain that human nature is constant. It may be just as possible to produce a breed of men who do not wish for liberty as to produce a breed of hornless cows. The Inquisition failed, but then the Inquisition had not the resources of the modern state. The radio, press censorship, standardized education and the secret police have altered everything. Mass suggestion is a science of the last twenty years, and we do not know how successful it will be.

George Orwell
Review of Power; A New Social Analysis by Bertrand Russell

One has only to think of the sinister possibilities of the radio, State-controlled education, and so forth, to realize that 'the truth is great and will prevail' is a prayer rather than an axiom.

Some years ago the sociologist David Riesman recommended that Social Studies not be part of the pre-college curriculum as, he suggested, many teachers would not resist the temptation to indoctrinate students. Remember this twit?

 

[A'isha]

Why would the party in control of government schools give equal time to opposition parties? Political control of school threatens democracy.

Which party is in control of government schools in America, and what, specifically, is it that they're excluding from these schools that the "opposition parties" need equal time to provide to students?

 

[Nick Terry]

Why would the party in control of government schools give equal time to opposition parties? Political control of school threatens democracy.

Funny how the politicians have been overseeing state education for more than a century without this causing democracy to fail in the US and without any evidence that schools are educating a horde of little Republicans or little Democrats.

Accusations of bias have been flung around continuously, in both directions, but there's no evidence that schools have thereby affected voting patterns. Otherwise the electoral pendulum would have stopped swinging one way or another a long time ago.

'Equal time' sounds like creationist griping, frankly.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

It might actually be difficult finding a statistics textbook describing how a single anecdote is not statistically useful, as it is too basic a concept.

100% agreement.

... BTW, my college-level statistics did not bother defining "anecdote" or defining problems with anecdotal evidence. They analyzed the relation between sample size and probability that a measure on a sample approaches the measure on the population. Neither did my college gym class bother with kindergarten lessons like "don't run with scissors". Randfan claims to have learned kindergarten-level statistics in a college statistics class. I can imagine a Philosophy of Statistics class that might do this (philosophers will discuss anything). Otherwise, I doubt Randfan's assertion that "Mine did" (discuss defects with anecdotal evidence).

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

The sources in wiki are sourced. I dealt with that. And your source for your definition of "slavery"? How is it that we can work with your definition absent proof by dictionary but you cannot.

Did Randfan's college statistics class used Wikipedia as a text? Randfan claimed that his texts discussed problems with anecdotal evidence.

Again, ANTPogo dealt with that.

Ant (partially) answered the first part of a two-part question.

But I noted your dodge and again failure to address my premises.

"Dodge" is uncivil; an accusation of argument in bad faith. I will not address "premises". I will address explicit arguments.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Funny how the politicians have been overseeing state education for more than a century without this causing democracy to fail in the US and without any evidence that schools are educating a horde of little Republicans or little Democrats.

1. It is failing.
2. Seen polling data on party preference by age, lately?

'Equal time' sounds like creationist griping, frankly.

Support for the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's exclusive position in receipt of the taxpayers' age 6-18 education subsidy looks like mendacious shilling for the cartel, frankly.

 

[jimbob]

It might actually be difficult finding a statistics textbook describing how a single anecdote is not statistically useful, as it is too basic a concept.

100% agreement.

... BTW, my college-level statistics did not bother defining "anecdote" or defining problems with anecdotal evidence. They analyzed the relation between sample size and probability that a measure on a sample approaches the measure on the population. Neither did my college gym class bother with kindergarten lessons like "don't run with scissors". Randfan claims to have learned kindergarten-level statistics in a college statistics class. I can imagine a Philosophy of Statistics class that might do this (philosophers will discuss anything). Otherwise, I doubt Randfan's assertion that "Mine did" (discuss defects with anecdotal evidence).

However I have no difficulty in believing that such difficulties are mentioned in passing in a statistics course.

You have posted stories of a few exceptional people from the 18th and 19th Centuries being homeschooled and then being successful.

Society and knowledge have changed since then.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Which party is in control of government schools in America, and what, specifically, is it that they're excluding from these schools that the "opposition parties" need equal time to provide to students?

a) Consider the distribution, by party affiliation, of NEA political contributions. Overwhelmingly (D).
b) Who argues for "equal time"?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

My read from Malcolm's post is that his alternative isn't to have as many children as possible receive the broadest education possible. Quite the opposite.

He seems quite willing to to sacrifice a good number of children in the name of his ideology.

Amazer seems quite willing to sacrifice a good number of Christian children to obtain the blood necessary for her Satanic rituals.

 

[A'isha]

a) Consider the distribution, by party affiliation, of NEA political contributions. Overwhelmingly (D).

How does that translate into "party control" of those schools? And why, if the Democrats have dominant control of schools, do Republicans keep getting control of local school boards and doing things like messing with science teaching standards?

b) Who argues for "equal time"?

I don't know, who? And what do they want to use that "equal time" for?