Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[RandFan]

Questions eternally ignored by Malcolm.

What form of slavery allows the slaves to opt out with permission from their parents? (see private school and homeschooling)?

ETA: You still haven't dealt with Loki's paradox Malcolm. At what point does doing what your parents decides is best for you become slavery? Nor have you conceded that the free market values a high school education regardless of whether it's private or public.

Malcom?

 

[bruto]

True enough. I've never seen Antarctica. I have to take someone's word for it that Antarctica exists. Someone asked for a cite and I supplied a cite. Ant judges Murray on Gould's or Kamin's say-so when Murray's works are far more available to her than Antarctica is to me. And I didn't ask Ant for a reference to someone with whom s/he agrees. I asked Ant for a quote from Murray on which to base the appellation "racist".

When it suits you, you are a stickler for reading exactly what you said. Since I quoted your post in full, obviously it is that post, not any other, to which I am responding. I make no representation of whose word is better or worse, only what I actually said.

 

[Dancing David]

That does not represent the complete range of possibilities. Neither do employers want to pay, in taxes, for training that the State then fails to deliver. Labor market regulation makes on-the-job training more expensive than it would be in the absence of such regulation.

And again, you fail to recognize the point, employers do NOT want to train their workers. It is not burdensome regulations, it is that they want people to have the skills already.

I can look for our discussion of junior colleges and higher education. It is employers who set these standards, not the colleges and junior colleges.

IT wants all sorts of certifications, they do NOT want to train you.

Employers do NOT want to train welders, they want them to have already passed the eight week class.

 

[RandFan]

When the free market stops demanding a high school diploma or GED Malcolm might have a basis for his belief... "might".

 

[RandFan]

curiouser and curiouser

Why do private institutions accept diplomas from public schools? If a student going to a public school has not learned anything (it's just a slave for other purposes) why the hell would a private institution demand a diploma or GED?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

And again, you fail to recognize the point...

And again, David personalizes the discussion. David fails to understand that Becker (Human Capital) defines "school" as an institution whose principal product is education. At one time, on-the-job training was routine for nearly all professiona and trades. See Berg, Education and Jobs: The Great Training Robbery. People went from high school to teaching hospitals for training as nurses until after WW II. Lawyers and surgeons learned through apprenticeship.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Why do private institutions accept diplomas from public schools? If a student going to a public school has not learned anything (it's just a slave for other purposes) why the hell would a private institution demand a diploma or GED?

The compensation that government schools offer to students is a function of parent SES. Slavery is a matter of degree.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Argument by assertion in the face of contradictory evidence. It's very hard to get a good job without a diploma.

Homeschoolers routinely manage exactly that. Some competitive occupations where performance matters more than credentials (musicians, athletes) reward performance directly.

The extent to which employment depends on credentials is a measure of the success of the cartel's lobbyists and pr flacks (including astroturfing internet shills).

 

[A'isha]

And again, David personalizes the discussion. David fails to understand that Becker (Human Capital) defines "school" as an institution whose principal product is education.

And we should care what a fifty-year-old book from one of the Chicago School's leading lights says about "school as an institution" because...why, exactly?

At one time, on-the-job training was routine for nearly all professiona and trades. See Berg, Education and Jobs: The Great Training Robbery. People went from high school to teaching hospitals for training as nurses until after WW II. Lawyers and surgeons learned through apprenticeship.

Because the nature of those jobs has changed because they've grown vastly more complez, which is why you can't learn to be a surgeon through apprenticeship any more.

Which reminds me, you never answered my question: if a person, right now, today, April 19, 2013, sends a resume and application to Boeing for a position as an aircraft designer, but the resume says that the only education he or she has is dropping out of high school (not even a GED), and lists their work experience as managing a small local shop that sells and repairs bicycles, what are the chances of that person getting hired by Boeing for the job?

 

[A'isha]

Homeschoolers routinely manage exactly that. Some competitive occupations where performance matters more than credentials (musicians, athletes) reward performance directly.

So, your argument is that homeschooling is not just okay, but preferable, because you don't need a diploma or a degree to be a musician or an athlete?

 

[Border Reiver]

And again, David personalizes the discussion. David fails to understand that Becker (Human Capital) defines "school" as an institution whose principal product is education. At one time, on-the-job training was routine for nearly all professiona and trades. See Berg, Education and Jobs: The Great Training Robbery. People went from high school to teaching hospitals for training as nurses until after WW II. Lawyers and surgeons learned through apprenticeship.

None of those professions allow OJT as a means of being qualified to hold one's self out as a member. And have not for quite a period of time (at least 60 years at this point). Given that the professions themselves (more accurately the self regulating bodies) won't accept "Bob trained me!" As a sign you know what you're doing, why do you want them to?

 

[RandFan]

The compensation that government schools offer to students is a function of parent SES.

If a person doesn't get either a public school or private school diploma or GED that person is not likely to get a good job or go to a reputable institution of higher learning.

Slavery is a matter of degree.

Yes, you've said this but have made absolutely no attempt to clarify.

How much slavery is public school compared to private school? You are so painted in a corner that you can't dare to specifically address my points which is why you continue to regurgitate banalities as if they actually had any substance. They don't Malcolm. You are in effect ignoring me. To state that slavery is a degree answers no question. If slavery is relative then how relative is private school slavery compared to public slavery and why the hell should anyone in the free market give a damn?

It would be nice if someone could answer my questions rather than play childish games.

 

[RandFan]

Homeschoolers routinely manage exactly that. Some competitive occupations where performance matters more than credentials (musicians, athletes) reward performance directly.

If homeschooling cannot provide children with the abilities that benefit the free market then the free market wouldn't demand them. Period. The fact that we have homeschooling proves that the govt cedes to parents the ultimate decision. If you could persuade parents that public schools were slavery most parents would be aghast and home school their children. Thing is, most parents know they are unlikely to do a better job than public education. And most parents know that without a diploma or GED their child is likely to have the pick of the lowest hanging fruit for jobs.

It's the oddest form of slavery I've ever heard of. It's a form of slavery that grantees that if you work hard and learn as much as you can and get good grades you can have a very good career. And it's true.

The extent to which employment depends on credentials is a measure of the success of the cartel's lobbyists and pr flacks (including astroturfing internet shills).

Evidence that private institutions are governed by cartel's and their lobbyists? If you can't acquire such evidence then I'm going to assume that yet again you are pulling this straight out of your nether regions to ad hoc explain another of the many holes in your silly argument.

It looks as if you are in the wrong forum. This really is CT.

 

[RandFan]

A question that demands an answer:

Why do private institutions accept diplomas from public schools? If a student going to a public school has not learned anything (it's just a slave for other purposes) why the hell would a private institution demand a diploma or GED?

• So, you can't get a job without a diploma or GED.
• You also can't get into a reputable institution of higher learning without one.

So Malcolm says that there is a cartel that forces private businesses to employ public students. Does this cartel also force private institutions to accept children who have gone to public school but are unable to function at a collegiate level because they never learned anything in public school?

Is anyone else buying such nonsense?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

And we should care what a fifty-year-old book from one of the Chicago School's leading lights says about "school as an institution" because...why, exactly?

So, ideas have a "sell by" date after which they go stale? You should attend Becker because he gave the matter of human capital formation a lot of systematic consideration. What's your definition of "school"?

Because the nature of those jobs has changed because they've grown vastly more complez, which is why you can't learn to be a surgeon through apprenticeship any more.

The parts of medical training that do not led themselves to independent study and credit-by-exam are precisely those that depend on the personal touch.

Which reminds me, you never answered my question: if a person, right now, today, April 19, 2013, sends a resume and application to Boeing for a position as an aircraft designer, but the resume says that the only education he or she has is dropping out of high school (not even a GED), and lists their work experience as managing a small local shop that sells and repairs bicycles, what are the chances of that person getting hired by Boeing for the job?

Demonstrate exceptional knowledge of fluid dynamics and you might get hired.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So, you can't get a job without a diploma or GED.¹You also can't get into a reputable institution of higher learning without one.²

1. False. Actors, athletes, and musicians need only demonstrate performance. Lot's of trades are open to entry by exam (US diplomat, welder, actuary, even law in some jurisdictions).
2. False. I tutored a homeschooler who sat in on advanced Math classes after 8th grade, got admitted to the Universiy of Hawaii graduate program (Math) before he turned 17 (no high school diploma, no B.A.), earned his MS (Math) before he turned 19 and got five years of support at one of the top-rated Math programis in the US to work on his PhD.

Is anyone else buying RandFan's nonsense?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

None of those professions allow OJT as a means of being qualified to hold one's self out as a member. And have not for quite a period of time (at least 60 years at this point). Given that the professions themselves (more accurately the self regulating bodies) won't accept "Bob trained me!" As a sign you know what you're doing, why do you want them to?

False. California and Virginia allow lawyers to practice after passing the bar exam and an apprenticeship.

 

[RandFan]

1. False. Actors, athletes, and musicians need only demonstrate performance. Lot's of trades are open to entry by exam (US diplomat, welder, actuary, even law in some jurisdictions).
2. False. I tutored a homeschooler who sat in on advanced Math classes after 8th grade, got admitted to the Universiy of Hawaii graduate program (Math) before he turned 17 (no high school diploma, no B.A.), earned his MS (Math) before he turned 19 and got five years of support at one of the top-rated Math programis in the US to work on his PhD.

I said homeschooling is an option. That works for me not you. If public school is such slavery how was that allowed to happen? We aren't talking about statistical outliers here. We are talking about the average. How many of the average succeed without either homeschooling, public or private school? Get back to me with those numbers and we will have something to talk about. Until then if you are an average person and you want a good job or if you want to go to a institution of higher learning you will need a diploma or GED. Public or private. If private institutions and private companies agreed with you even for a moment they wouldn't require them.

 

[RandFan]

Malcolm working hard to prove me correct:

Questions Malcolm will not answer:

Why do private institutions accept diplomas from public schools? If a student going to a public school has not learned anything (it's just a slave for other purposes) why the hell would a private institution demand a diploma or GED?

• So, you can't get a job without a diploma or GED.
• You also can't get into a reputable institution of higher learning without one.

So Malcolm says that there is a cartel that forces private businesses to employ public students. Does this cartel also force private institutions to accept children who have gone to public school but are unable to function at a collegiate level because they never learned anything in public school?

Is anyone else buying such nonsense?

 

[A'isha]

False. California and Virginia allow lawyers to practice after passing the bar exam and an apprenticeship.

And Orly Taitz is the perfect example of why that's a terrible, terrible idea.