Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[Upchurch]

At best, maybe you could argue for indentured servitude, since the compulsory part ends at age 16 or so. But again, the work done by the indentured servant, in this case, benefits the student. So it's the student working as an indentured servant for the benefit of...his older self, who will be in need of that diploma years later?

Well, I think that's the point.

Unless you want to make a very weak argument that an educated populace benefits all of society, which it does, the only person who directly benefits from "compulsory" (and free) education is the student.

I'm not even sure how "compulsory labor" plays into it. The state only enforces that the student show up, not that they apply themselves or do homework. There is no law against flunking out.

 

[A'isha]

I'm not even sure how "compulsory labor" plays into it. The state only enforces that the student show up, not that they apply themselves or do homework. There is no law against flunking out.

That appears to be part of the system of slavery that Malcolm sees: "Overseers (teachers) threaten to blight children's lives with unattractive transcripts unless those children jump through the hoops that teachers present."

Apparently getting bad grades is a form of coercion akin to the lash.

 

[Upchurch]

That appears to be part of the system of slavery that Malcolm sees: "Overseers (teachers) threaten to blight children's lives with unattractive transcripts unless those children jump through the hoops that teachers present."

Apparently getting bad grades is a form of coercion akin to the lash.

How absurdly hyperbolic.

 

[iknownothing]

As Malcolm's own words in the quote you replied to show, he doesn't seem to actually think that.

He seems to think that the students in school derive no benefit for themselves whatsoever, and are merely "windowdressing in the massive make-work program for dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel", who are the ones actually benefiting from the student's unpaid compulsory labor.

Yeah, he did say that. I guess I'm just having trouble understanding that he really believes that! I mean, anyone can get snarky sometimes and say things about all the make-work and nonsense that you do in school. But people do actually come out having learned something. Not necessarily as much as they should have, because like Upchurch said, no one can really make them apply themselves. But some education.

So, Malcolm believes that the slave overseers oversee slaves for the purpose of providing themselves employment as overseers? Is there any parallel for that to any slavery practiced in reality, ever? Who are the owners in this scenario?

 

[RandFan]

Yeah, he did say that. I guess I'm just having trouble understanding that he really believes that!

I seriously doubt it. It's a result of obstinately clinging to a proposition after being painted into a corner.

 

[A'isha]

I seriously doubt it. It's a result of obstinately clinging to a proposition after being painted into a corner.

It's not the first time he's said that, though.

 

[bruto]

I seriously doubt it. It's a result of obstinately clinging to a proposition after being painted into a corner.

On the other hand, we have not seen much evidence of orderly thought and intelligent analysis, nor any particular reason to believe what is said is not what is believed.

 

[RandFan]

It's not the first time he's said that, though.

On the other hand, we have not seen much evidence of orderly thought and intelligent analysis, nor any particular reason to believe what is said is not what is believed.

Fair enough. I'll withdraw that particular claim. I do think the guy is painted into a corner though. It's incoherent to assert that parents are responsible for their children such that home chores are not slavery but educating your children via public education is. The logic looks a bit like a pretzel held together by special pleading.

 

[jimbob]

Fair enough. I'll withdraw that particular claim. I do think the guy is painted into a corner though. It's incoherent to assert that parents are responsible for their children such that home chores are not slavery but educating your children via public education is. The logic looks a bit like a pretzel held together by special pleading.

Add in the fact that it would be OK for parents to send their children to work in factories and you seem to have a phobia of state-mandated activity coupled with an automatic preference for a completely unfettered free market.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Fortunately, children do not go "unpaid" when getting an education, wouldn't you agree?¹Or do you find an education to be of no value?²

1. Depends on which children. You can't eat a transcript. Compulsion would not be needed if the pay were adequate.
2. That's the difference between free marketeers and devotees of the command economy: free marketeers would not presume to read other people's minds and assert how much other people "value" a good or service.

 

[bruto]

Fair enough. I'll withdraw that particular claim. I do think the guy is painted into a corner though. It's incoherent to assert that parents are responsible for their children such that home chores are not slavery but educating your children via public education is. The logic looks a bit like a pretzel held together by special pleading.

And I in turn will second the corner painting. It's corners all the way down, so to speak. We could start with what I would have thought a fairly obvious observation that private enterprise is not, historically, the enemy of slavery and exploitation, though one must add here the caveat that I mean the terms as they are commonly used by people who have a language in common.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

...So, Malcolm believes that the slave overseers oversee slaves for the purpose of providing themselves employment as overseers? Is there any parallel for that to any slavery practiced in reality, ever?

The Soviet Union, 1917-1991.

 

[RandFan]

1. Depends on which children. You can't eat a transcript. Compulsion would not be needed if the pay were adequate.
2. That's the difference between free marketeers and devotees of the command economy: free marketeers would not presume to read other people's minds and assert how much other people "value" a good or service.

So, when rich parents send their children to private, non-union schools, is that slavery?

"special pleading" "pretzel logic"

School becomes slavery if you are poor. If you are a poor parent and cannot afford private school it's better to keep the kid home and have it do chores. Hell, better to send it to the local factory. Remember when children didn't have to be slaves in public education and were free to earn a living?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

That appears to be part of the system of slavery that Malcolm sees: "Overseers (teachers) threaten to blight children's lives with unattractive transcripts unless those children jump through the hoops that teachers present."

Apparently getting bad grades is a form of coercion akin to the lash.

How 'bout you deal with what I actualls wrote? Do government-operated schools send transcripts to admissions officials of post-secondary institutions employers or not? Are government school records available to government employers (e.g., the military, the Foreign Service, IRS, etc.) or not?

 

[RandFan]

Do government-operated schools send transcripts to admissions officials of post-secondary institutions employers or not? Are government school records available to government employers (e.g., the military, the Foreign Service, IRS, etc.) or not?

Do private schools send transcripts to admissions officials of post-secondary institutions employers or not? Are private school records available to government employers?

 

[RandFan]

The Soviet Union, 1917-1991.

That's a rather idiotic way to enslave people in an autocratic system. The govt can do whatever the hell it likes. Why not just put the children to work in factories?

 

[RandFan]

A question not likely to be answered:

Where are these bright and shinny societies where poor children don't go to school and everyone is the better for it?

The following is a list of nations ranked highest in economic freedom. Which of these do not offer public education?

Hong Kong
Singapore
Australia
New Zealand
Switzerland
Canada
Chile
Mauritius
Denmark
United States

 

[A'isha]

How 'bout you deal with what I actualls wrote?

Did you not write "Overseers (teachers) threaten to blight children's lives with unattractive transcripts unless those children jump through the hoops that teachers present"?

The following is a list of nations ranked highest in economic freedom. Which of these do not offer public education?

Hong Kong
Singapore
Australia
New Zealand
Switzerland
Canada
Chile
Mauritius
Denmark
United States

Singapore has had compulsory education for ten years now, too.

 

[Upchurch]

1. Depends on which children. You can't eat a transcript. Compulsion would not be needed if the pay were adequate.
2. That's the difference between free marketeers and devotees of the command economy: free marketeers would not presume to read other people's minds and assert how much other people "value" a good or service.

You can't eat a transcript, but you can eat the school lunch. Many schools these days also provide a breakfast as well.

I didn't ask about other people. I asked if you found an education to be of no value. Is that true?

 

[RandFan]

You can't eat a transcript, but you can eat the school lunch.

My son can tell you that most private (as well as public jobs) are difficult to get without a high school diploma or GED. Private companies in America must be in collusion with the govt to enslave children.