Merged Does CERN prove Einstein wrong?

Chris L said:
I'm probably the 4327th person to point this out to you, but let's try one more time. Neither photon is going faster than c. How fast they are going relative to each other is besides the point. An outside observer would measure the velocity of each photon as c. That means each photon will cover a light second of distance every second. period. full stop.
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Hold on a minute. Doesn't SR state that ALL velocities are relative and that NO velocity can exceed the speed of light? If so, then how fast the photons are traveling relative to each other is NOT beside the point. And measuring the relative velocity between the photons in a laboratory will give a result of two times the speed of light which contradicts Einstein's special relativity.
 
Anders Lindman said:
And measuring the relative velocity between the photons in a laboratory will give a result of two times the speed of light which contradicts Einstein's special relativity.
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If I am in the lab and measure something going west at 0.51c, and something else going east at 0.51c, then I measure the distance between them to be increasing at 1.02c.

This does not contradict special relativity. Not in the slightest. If you think it does, then you've mislearned what the theory says and what its principles are.
 
ben m said:
If I am in the lab and measure something going west at 0.51c, and something else going east at 0.51c, then I measure the distance between them to be increasing at 1.02c.

This does not contradict special relativity. Not in the slightest. If you think it does, then you've mislearned what the theory says and what its principles are.
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That's a similar case as in my previous post: Doesn't SR state that ALL velocities are relative and that NO velocity can exceed the speed of light? If so, then how fast the photons are traveling relative to each other is NOT beside the point. And measuring the relative velocity between the photons in a laboratory will give a result of two times the speed of light which contradicts Einstein's special relativity.
 
ben m said:
If I am in the lab and measure something going west at 0.51c, and something else going east at 0.51c, then I measure the distance between them to be increasing at 1.02c.

This does not contradict special relativity. Not in the slightest. If you think it does, then you've mislearned what the theory says and what its principles are.
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Ben is correct. Measuring two beams is invalid. The measurement is a construct, an abstraction, nothing is actually moving at 2c
 
Anders Lindman said:
So, according to Einstein's special relativity, how is the velocity between two photons traveling in opposite directions calculated? Can you show the maths? The photons are measured in a laboratory which is the location of the observer.
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The difference in velocity of the two photons is 2c. The point is, this is totally fine in SR. If you think SR prohibits this, you are mistaken.

This observer does not observe any object moving faster than c. (That would violate SR.) Neither does any other observer. (That would also violate SR.) The photons do NOT, for example, observe one another to be moving at 2c.
 
excaza said:
I got really confused for a second. I really don't think Anders' posts should be part of the CERN discussion, they're all CT related.
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I agree. No offense to Anders and his theories, which seem to deserve some discussion, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with this particular CERN experiment. I've spent much more time in this thread scrolling than reading.

To the topic: Are there any facilities aside from CERN that can currently replicate this exact type of experiment? And/or how long would it take to get something like that going? Or investing in other neutrino-speed measuring facilities?

And do you (anyone reading) think that there'll also be an effort to review/repeat experiments like that Star OPERA thing and that Mozart one?

Finally, could special relatively be like Newtonian physics in that it properly explains everything well on its own scale/mode of reality, but this new (of course, if it's real) FTL physics is a "further step" in explanation? Could it also be that neutrinos are unique, and even if they travel faster than light, when they do so if they don't interact in a significant FTL way with anything else the effects wouldn't reach back to effect special relativity? Keep in mind I'm almost completely ignorant about physics.

I've really enjoyed reading the explanations and conjectures by Sol and others, especially the possible flaws with the experiment.
 
Dragoonster said:
I agree. No offense to Anders and his theories, which seem to deserve some discussion, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with this particular CERN experiment. I've spent much more time in this thread scrolling than reading.
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I agree that his posts are off topic, and a distraction in this thread.

I was wondering why the moderators were allowing it and not deleting or transferring his posts
 
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ben m said:
The difference in velocity of the two photons is 2c. The point is, this is totally fine in SR. If you think SR prohibits this, you are mistaken.

This observer does not observe any object moving faster than c. (That would violate SR.) Neither does any other observer. (That would also violate SR.) The photons do NOT, for example, observe one another to be moving at 2c.
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But then SR can only deal with one object at a time! :eek: And to deal with more than one objects the velocities are added non-relativistically! :confused:

This is NOT off topic imo. To question and reexamine Einstein's relativity theories is a must in the light of this new result from CERN.
 
"Science world in shock after Cern light speed claim

A British physicist even promised to eat his boxer shorts on live television if it turned out to be correct.

Scientists at CERN, the world's largest physics lab near Geneva, stunned the world of science on Thursday night by announcing they had observed tiny particles known as neutrinos travelling slightly faster than light.

The claim – if true – would be inconsistent with Einstein's theory of special relativity, a cornerstone of modern physics which states that nothing can travel faster than light." -- Full story: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...ld-in-shock-after-Cern-light-speed-claim.html
 
Conspiracy researchers have said that there are (at least) two levels of knowledge in the world; one for the public going up to the level of professors in academia, and another level above that hidden from the public where the real knowledge is kept.

Could it be that Einstein's relativity theories have been deliberately created to fool the public? Why? Because by keeping the correct knowledge to themselves they (the shadow powers) can remain one step ahead of the rest of us.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Conspiracy researchers have said that there are (at least) two levels of knowledge in the world; one for the public going up to the level of professors in academia, and another level above that hidden from the public where the real knowledge is kept.

Could it be that Einstein's relativity theories have been deliberately created to fool the public? Why? Because by keeping the correct knowledge to themselves they (the shadow powers) can remain one step ahead of the rest of us.
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I have often been accused of talking out of my rear, but didn't the need for relativity arise because light from the stars seemed to travel at the same speed regardless of how fast an individual star was moving relative to the Earth? Or am I hopelessly confused again?

It looks like dark matter might be up poo creek also
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14948730
 
Anders Lindman said:
Conspiracy researchers have said that there are (at least) two levels of knowledge in the world; one for the public going up to the level of professors in academia, and another level above that hidden from the public where the real knowledge is kept.

Could it be that Einstein's relativity theories have been deliberately created to fool the public? Why? Because by keeping the correct knowledge to themselves they (the shadow powers) can remain one step ahead of the rest of us.
Click to expand...

Haha.
 
little grey rabbit said:
I have often been accused of talking out of my rear, but didn't the need for relativity arise because light from the stars seemed to travel at the same speed regardless of how fast an individual star was moving relative to the Earth? Or am I hopelessly confused again?

It looks like dark matter might be up poo creek also
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14948730
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I think the redshift observed in astronomy is caused by friction between photons and the vacuum energy. That could explain how the light from stars have the same speed without the need for Einstein's relativity theories or dark energy.
 
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