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Does atheism differ from agnosticism?

I don't want you incorporated, and I don't care about the numbers. That I am an atheist has nothing at all to do with the reason I say you are one. I don't want you on the team; there's no team to want you on. It's simply a fact. You don't have to call yourself an atheist. You don't have to buy a t-shirt. You are an atheist if you are not a theist. There is no logically possible middle ground..

Without meaning to get too pedantic, an a-theos ist would be one who actively does non-god, it isn't a passive state of non belief or adoxia.

-ist, which comes from the Greek suffix -istes, forms agent nouns, that is, nouns that denote someone who does something.

:D
 
My primary issue is that "atheism" is a belief system in non-god (a-theos), if you wish to express non-belief then the more appropriate terminology would revolve around a-dox or non-belief. If you wish to cliam that you have no belief in god(s) I've no problem with that. Adoxtheism, however, would be describing a belief system that that doesn't believe in god (the "ism" is somewhat redundant, and somewhat contradictory as you seem to be wanting to use it). If you want to claim lack of beliefs you are adogmatic or adoxic, but it doesn't make much sense to talk about a belief system without beliefs, (which, BTW, is basically the conclusion that the early Greek philosophers came to with regards to the original term I mentioned, "adoxastôs").
adoxtheos is a fine start. But what form of it would I use it in this sentence: _____________ is on the rise. Adoxtheism seems natural to me. -ism here meaning state, not belief system or practice.

PS. Is botulism a belief in sausages? Is racism a belief that there are races?
 
Those that are telling you are an atheist - and that includes me - apparently use the word quite differently than you do yourself.

Fine, I'm a deist now. Don't call me an atheist or a theist because neither of those are true. I reserve the right to change my mind within the next 20 minutes, so I may or may not still be a deist tomorrow. Sorry if that confuses you.
 
Fine, I'm a deist now. Don't call me an atheist or a theist because neither of those are true.

You're just not getting it, are you? You will always be either an atheist or a theist - no matter what else you may or may not be.

I reserve the right to change my mind within the next 20 minutes, so I may or may not still be a deist tomorrow. Sorry if that confuses you.

Why do you assume it should confuse me?

I am not even confused that you withhold judgement as to whether god exists or not.

You, however, appear to have a problem with the idea that an atheist does not have to claim that there certainly isn't a god. But they don't have to do that according to the definition I use.
 
Fine, I'm a deist now. Don't call me an atheist or a theist because neither of those are true. I reserve the right to change my mind within the next 20 minutes, so I may or may not still be a deist tomorrow. Sorry if that confuses you.
Actually, deism is a subset of theism. You are now a theist. Try again.
 
Fine, I'm a deist now. Don't call me an atheist or a theist because neither of those are true. I reserve the right to change my mind within the next 20 minutes, so I may or may not still be a deist tomorrow. Sorry if that confuses you.
*cough* Technically a deist is a theist.:duck:

Edit: darnit, beaten while I was searching for that ducking smiley.
 
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Actually, deism is a subset of theism. You are now a theist. Try again.

If it's a subset it differs from theism.

It doesn't really matter though, 20 minutes haven't passed, so I've changed my mind again and I'm an atheist now. I also have another 20 minute interval in which to change sides yet again. It's likely that I will.
 
If it's a subset it differs from theism.

It doesn't really matter though, 20 minutes haven't passed, so I've changed my mind again and I'm an atheist now. I also have another 20 minute interval in which to change sides yet again. It's likely that I will.
Only in the sense that golden retrievers differ from dogs.

On a side note: Why are the longest and bloodiest wars on this forum always over semantics?
 
If it's a subset it differs from theism.

No.

"Houses" is a subset of "buildings". But houses are not differing from buildings.

"Apples" is a subset from "fruit". But apples are not differing from fruit.
 
What I'm saying is that you have to ignore that for such a question to not seem absurd.
Fine--so I'm asking you to ignore it and concentrate on the logical argument being made.

Sure it does, because there are theists who can also be agnostic. The "problem" most arguments about agnosticism I've seen have is that they don't fit the binary claim of theism or atheism. I don't see that as a problem, because a religion like Buddhism has a similar structure and yet still exists as a relevant philosophical state. Basically, I'm saying a metaphor for why agnosticism is a logically tenable position separate from (but not exclusive of) atheism already exists in the religious belief of Buddhism.
And I'm saying that there are either theist Buddhists or atheist Buddhists and no usefully defined group that can be labelled "agnostic" Buddhists. If you think there is (i.e., if you think that there is some coherent, valid position that should be labeled "agnostic" and will be distinct from both a coherent, valid "theism" and a coherent, valid "atheism" I really wish you'd just say what it entails).

I think the Dawkins example is an acceptable one in its simplicity. "Validity" is going to vary depending on the position of the person interpreting it, though.
No, validity depends on logical consistency. Please note I'm not using "valid" here to mean "true" or "correct." I think theists are wrong, for example, but I still believe you can give a coherent account of theism. What I am arguing is that you can't coherently distinguish "atheism" from "agnosticism" without making one term or the other describe an absurd position.

Not in this case it isn't, because it is appealing to ridicule. The absurd reduction is the mechanism to reach the appeal to ridicule.
I don't know what you mean here, but I do know that the term "reductio ad absurdum" does not describe a form of logical fallacy. It describes a way of exposing someone else's logical (or factual) fallacies. Don't take my word for it--just try Googling it.
 
This one always amuses me, and which is why I stand firmly in the "have not made a choice, feel no need to make a choice" camp as described by Apology earlier.

Comparing Christianity, or Islam, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or many other religious beliefs to believing in unicorns or invisible bunnies seems to ignore, whether implicitly or explicitly, the social inertia (or you could say baggage) of the history of the belief in terms of cultural history. They aren't really comparable concepts outside of a vacuum where no other factors but the belief exist. Now, fifty or a hundred or a thousand years from now, if there is a Church of the Invisible Bunny or the Unicorn Orthodox Church that exists, then I could see them as being not only comparable but in fact extremely similar in terms of holding a faith. There seems to be no rhetorical logic behind the argument except to commit the logical fallacy of reduction to absurdity.

Reductio ad absurdum is not a logical fallacy. It is a logical argument that assumes a claim, demonstrates that the claim leads to an absurdity, and concludes that the assumption must therefore be incorrect.

In the case of the "unicorn" argument, the claim is that it is reasonable to believe in a god for which there is no empirical evidence. The absurdity that it leads to is that it is equally reasonable to believe in other beings, such as unicorns, for which there is no empirical evidence.

Ignoring the "social inertia" of religious beliefs is the very point of the comparison, because "social inertia" is not a good reason for adopting a belief. Evidence is, and indeed, the evidence for the existence of unicorns is every bit as good as that for the existence of god (according to most traditional definitions of "god," anyway). The mere fact that millions of people have held a belief for thousands of years does not in itself make that belief likely to be true.

I've never understood why atheism would want to incorporate people into their group that clearly don't want to be a part of that group, unless it's to make up for their lack of numbers.

No one has asked you to join a group of which you don't want to be a part. They've simply asked you, "do you believe in god?" Since you have said more than once in this very thread that you "do not believe God exists," that, like it or not, makes you an atheist by definition.

Yes, you could then go on to say more about your non-belief, such as that you are not completely sure. That's a completely reasonable position, and one with which I think most here would agree. But that's not the question that was asked.

To use the analogy you drew in a previous post, the question you are being asked is, "Do you like men?" You are answering, "No, I am bisexual." Your answer is contradictory. Being bisexual means you do like men; it just happens to mean some other things in addition to liking men. Similarly, being agnostic means that you do not have a belief in god. Yes, it means some other things in addition to your non-belief, but it still entails non-belief--atheism.
 
If it's a subset it differs from theism.

It doesn't really matter though, 20 minutes haven't passed, so I've changed my mind again and I'm an atheist now. I also have another 20 minute interval in which to change sides yet again. It's likely that I will.

Apology, you're proving my initial point rather nicely here. You're saying that "agnosticism" doesn't describe a coherent, valid philosophical position in respect to the existence of god--rather it's a socially useful descriptor of people who are hesitant about which position they wish to adopt.

The point of my question was not "does agnosticism serve a function as a term in social use" but "does it describe a position that can be coherently and usefully distinguished from atheism (or from theism)."

The fact that your only way to demonstrate "agnosticism" is by switching from the clearly defined "theism" to the equally clearly defined "atheism" suggests that the answer to that last question is no.
 
Except,
1. There is a group of people who believe in god/s: they're called theists. Everyone who is not in that club is called an atheist. Unless you can say 'yes' to "Do you believe in god/s?", you're out here with the rest of us.

Please explain where the religion of Buddhism sits in this either/or statement.

2. An agnostic position is not a position of hubris, it's the exact opposite. It an admission of not being able competent enough to judge evidence that shows the existence of a being outside the universe. That's not hubris, that's humility.

Ahh, the good old "you're stupid" argument.

3. There's lots of people who say they are agnostic atheists, Michael Shermer among them.

That has little to do with the price of tea in China.
 
I'm totallly confused now. Is a Christian agnostic an atheist or a theist?
Your question points to exactly why I see no value in the term "agnostic." People like Apology want to say "I am neither theist nor atheist, I'm in the middle--agnostic." But if it makes perfect sense to also speak of "theist agnostics" and "atheist agnostics" then the term is just hopelessly muddled. "Not knowing" is the (actual) state of all atheists and all theists. It is the self-described state of most (I would say almost all) atheists and (probably) most theists. It does not describe a coherent, separate, position on the relevant issues.
 
I'm pretty sure I'm never going to be comfortable with any of the groups and will never choose one.

You seem to like hanging out in the fuzzy part of fuzzy sets. I can empathize as I tend to do the same (and similarly get in trouble for it :)).

When you visualize the shifting nature of the degree of membership in the two groups (theism/atheism), do you see them as complementary (as the degree of membership increases in one, it decreases in the other) or independent (the degree of membership varies in one with no effect on the other)?

Linda
 
Reductio ad absurdum is not a logical fallacy.

It is when it's used to appeal to ridicule.

It is a logical argument that assumes a claim, demonstrates that the claim leads to an absurdity, and concludes that the assumption must therefore be incorrect.

See above. When it's used as an excuse to ridicule, which has consistently been the case in my experience on this subforum, it falls into fallacy.

In the case of the "unicorn" argument, the claim is that it is reasonable to believe in a god for which there is no empirical evidence. The absurdity that it leads to is that it is equally reasonable to believe in other beings, such as unicorns, for which there is no empirical evidence.

Like I said, show me the Unicorn Orthodox Church and we can agree on this claim. Otherwise it is an intellectually lazy assertion.

Ignoring the "social inertia" of religious beliefs is the very point of the comparison

Which is why it fails.

, because "social inertia" is not a good reason for adopting a belief.

And this is why I find such arguments amusing. Arguing from a vacuum is no way to make a point about a social construct.

Evidence is, and indeed, the evidence for the existence of unicorns is every bit as good as that for the existence of god (according to most traditional definitions of "god," anyway). The mere fact that millions of people have held a belief for thousands of years does not in itself make that belief likely to be true.

Since I already pointed out it isn't the antiquity, you are making a strawman point. See my comments regarding the Church of FSM.
 

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