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Does anyone here actually oppose Network Neutrality?

You're failing to appreciate that it's fundamentally unfair to demand that a business hand over it's resources simply to make it easier for it's competitors.
If the business has monopoly power due to its situation, many would think that the unfairness of that supercedes the unfairness of making such a demand.
Finally, you're failing to appreciate that the carriers could very realistically lease out their access to a variety of competitors. Or, that there might be a sweet spot where 3 or 5 or whatever number of wires provides the best trade-off among competitors for value and service. The reality is that you just don't know what would happen.
Evidence outside the US does not suggest that local exchange network operators would voluntarily do this (for obvious reasons).
 
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You're failing to appreciate that it's fundamentally unfair to demand that a business hand over it's resources simply to make it easier for it's competitors.

No I haven't. I have already acknowledged that it is a problem to take away property from one business, and distribute it to another. The problems are many, and does not necessarily have to do with "fairness."

1. It would require an anti-trust law suit in order to do so. (The taking of property from one business, in order to distribute it to another has been established over a hundred years ago. It's called "anti-trust laws".)

2. Anti-trust lawsuits against a business operating as a regional monopoly, would be extremely complicated that I failed to clarify, that paulhatch clarified. As a "regional monopoly," Comcast has thousands....tens of thousands....of contracts with various local governments (at the county and city levels,) that allow them to operate as a monopoly in those particular areas. The history of anti-trust suits have only really been brought at a national level. Considering a local Comcast branch doesn't have lines that extend beyond state boundaries, I am not even sure that such a suit would even be possible.

But yes. It is entirely legal (and fair) to break up a large corporation (if it is large enough, if it is a monopoly, or if it violates its terms of agreement with government and/or individual customers), and redistribute its property to other businesses. Especially if it engages in "unfair business practices."

Now, it is "fair" to take away said property, if we, the people, through our government and elected officials, have given that business the privilege and opportunity to operate as a monopoly to begin with! We gaveth, and we can taketh away. Not to mention, a monopoly itself is inherently unfair. Therefore, it isn't "unfair" to take away part of that monopolies property to redistribute to other businesses in the name of competitive fairness. Francesca has thoroughly convinced me that is the best thing to do.

You can make the very same argument about cars vs buses - it's stupid to have so many cars on the road when it would be cheaper and possibly more efficient for us to use public transportation. But, that's not what we want, and we're willing to pay the cost for our own cars.

Uuummm....you got your comparison all wrong here. There is only one set of roads. It would be incredibly stupid, impractical, and VERY expensive if roads were privately owned, and each company had to build their own roads in the name of "competition." (Not to mention, it would literally be physically impossible.)

A telephone pole with lines, just like a city or a state with roads, can only hold so many lines (or build so many roads.) This is a physical reality. Not a biased opinion one can possibly hold. There are actual human beings (called "linemen,") who are paid very good money, who have a lot of knowledge and know-how, doing an already very dangerous job, covered by very expensive health insurance, who have to perform maintenance on those line. You cannot possibly add 4 or 5 sets of the exact same line type, without making an already complicated job, even more technically complicated and dangerous. Then you have an even worse problem in the middle of winter in the more northern states. These lines, literally, get weighted down by snow and ice. That weight would increase 2, 3, 4, or 5 fold if you were to add idiotically redundant lines! Yes. It is stupid, and completely unnecessary. As stupid and completely unnecessary as adding multiple sets of roads, or multiple sets of water pipes in the name of "competition."

And, regarding multiple wires into the house - so what if it's redundant. So are two gas stations at the same intersection or two home improvement centers on the same block. By your reasoning, only the first gas station should be allowed to exist and then since it has a monopoly, it should share its business with competitors.

But you are comparing apples to oranges here. Actually, let me roll with it for a second.

It is true. You can have two gas stations on the same corner. However, you cannot have more than 4 gas stations on the same corner. It would literally be a virtually, physical impossibility. Most intersections only have 4 corners, after all.

But here is where the comparisons between apples and oranges come in: The world of networking is much, much different from the world of construction. Why do you think that electricians make such good money? Better money, even, than construction workers? Because it requires a high-level of education in order to properly string up various different types of lines: electric lines, phone lines, etc, in a safe and organized manner. A single-family home is complicated enough. The average single-family home requires 3 or 4 different circuits.

Turn that single-family home into a 5-story apartment building. Suddenly, you need dozens, and dozens of circuits. In most apartment buildings, most individual apartments have at least 2 circuits each! And those are just the electricity lines! Never mind all the phone lines needed for each apartment. All internet lines. If you were to add 3 or 4 different ISPs, and all four ISPs were contracted to provide service to various different apartments throughout that building, each ISP with their own installation people coming in screwing around with wiring up their own wires through that building.....Seriously, you are asking for an absolute nightmare! One that is obnoxiously idiotic.

Then you have to add all those extra lines to the physical telephone poles outside. And all those lines have to be strung up for miles upon miles. And in the middle of winter, snow and ice piles up on those lines. You'll have different people, from different companies coming in, making repairs to their own lines. No thank you.
 
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If the business has monopoly power due to its situation, many would think that the unfairness of that supercedes the unfairness of making such a demand.

Evidence outside the US does not suggest that local exchange network operators would voluntarily do this (for obvious reasons).

Not in a million years, and that means competition depends on government influence. The 'wholesale' markets for telco copper loops had to be mandated by the regulator, right down to the monthly lease prices on a neighbourhood by neighbourhood basis.

Similarly for wireless: in Canada, there are 3 networks. Their policy was that if a 4th company wanted to compete, they could create their own network, there was no free market for wholesaling. The wholesaling of mobile tower access for paging, voice, text, data, and roaming agreements, was mandated by the regulator, and prices established.
 
Turn that single-family home into a 5-story apartment building. Suddenly, you need dozens, and dozens of circuits. In most apartment buildings, most individual apartments have at least 2 circuits each! And those are just the electricity lines! Never mind all the phone lines needed for each apartment. All internet lines. If you were to add 3 or 4 different ISPs, and all four ISPs were contracted to provide service to various different apartments throughout that building, each ISP with their own installation people coming in screwing around with wiring up their own wires through that building.....Seriously, you are asking for an absolute nightmare! One that is obnoxiously idiotic.

Then you have to add all those extra lines to the physical telephone poles outside. And all those lines have to be strung up for miles upon miles. And in the middle of winter, snow and ice piles up on those lines.

It would be near impossible in many markets. One of the reasons municipalities strike deals with one provider is that it simplifies the construction process. These days, subdivisions don't get built with poles - it's all buried conduit. If you wanted to have multiple last-mile connections, it would involve a digging up a lot of front yards and roads to increase capacity. And in Canada, that's not a winter prospect for most markets.

The second reason is zoning. By design, single family residences and condo apartments are build with two copper pairs. Part of the reasoning was that municipalities wanted to enforce their zoning usage: if you want a 3rd pair (for the unregistered suite or home based business) you have to dig up the yard or get approval from the strata to drill through concrete walls and run wire outside the condo.


Having said that, it wouldn't be too much more confusing on the demarc side than it already is today... the drop leads to a demarc, the demarc has jumpers to the building's panel, the panel has the connections to the jacks and coax in the dwelling. When the unit switches providers, the new provider just rolls back the old provider's jumpers and clips on their own. It'd be spaghetti, but as long as everything's labelled it is doable.





You'll have different people, from different companies coming in, making repairs to their own lines. No thank you.

That is the case in Canada at this point. In "competitive communities", there is no way to know whether the previous occupant's jacks are connected to the phone system, the cable company, or some other novel invention (ie: satellite to the roof). So all connections are field tech installed just in case. This inefficiency does increase costs, which obviously are passed onto the customer. Competition squeezes out new efficiencies, but creates new inefficiencies. End user pricingwise, they could cancel out, who knows.
 
No I haven't. I have already acknowledged that it is a problem to take away property from one business, and distribute it to another. The problems are many, and does not necessarily have to do with "fairness."

1. It would require an anti-trust law suit in order to do so. (The taking of property from one business, in order to distribute it to another has been established over a hundred years ago. It's called "anti-trust laws".)

2. Anti-trust lawsuits against a business operating as a regional monopoly, would be extremely complicated that I failed to clarify, that paulhatch clarified. As a "regional monopoly," Comcast has thousands....tens of thousands....of contracts with various local governments (at the county and city levels,) that allow them to operate as a monopoly in those particular areas. The history of anti-trust suits have only really been brought at a national level. Considering a local Comcast branch doesn't have lines that extend beyond state boundaries, I am not even sure that such a suit would even be possible.

But yes. It is entirely legal (and fair) to break up a large corporation (if it is large enough, if it is a monopoly, or if it violates its terms of agreement with government and/or individual customers), and redistribute its property to other businesses. Especially if it engages in "unfair business practices."

Now, it is "fair" to take away said property, if we, the people, through our government and elected officials, have given that business the privilege and opportunity to operate as a monopoly to begin with! We gaveth, and we can taketh away. Not to mention, a monopoly itself is inherently unfair. Therefore, it isn't "unfair" to take away part of that monopolies property to redistribute to other businesses in the name of competitive fairness. Francesca has thoroughly convinced me that is the best thing to do.



Uuummm....you got your comparison all wrong here. There is only one set of roads. It would be incredibly stupid, impractical, and VERY expensive if roads were privately owned, and each company had to build their own roads in the name of "competition." (Not to mention, it would literally be physically impossible.)

A telephone pole with lines, just like a city or a state with roads, can only hold so many lines (or build so many roads.) This is a physical reality. Not a biased opinion one can possibly hold. There are actual human beings (called "linemen,") who are paid very good money, who have a lot of knowledge and know-how, doing an already very dangerous job, covered by very expensive health insurance, who have to perform maintenance on those line. You cannot possibly add 4 or 5 sets of the exact same line type, without making an already complicated job, even more technically complicated and dangerous. Then you have an even worse problem in the middle of winter in the more northern states. These lines, literally, get weighted down by snow and ice. That weight would increase 2, 3, 4, or 5 fold if you were to add idiotically redundant lines! Yes. It is stupid, and completely unnecessary. As stupid and completely unnecessary as adding multiple sets of roads, or multiple sets of water pipes in the name of "competition."



But you are comparing apples to oranges here. Actually, let me roll with it for a second.

It is true. You can have two gas stations on the same corner. However, you cannot have more than 4 gas stations on the same corner. It would literally be a virtually, physical impossibility. Most intersections only have 4 corners, after all.

But here is where the comparisons between apples and oranges come in: The world of networking is much, much different from the world of construction. Why do you think that electricians make such good money? Better money, even, than construction workers? Because it requires a high-level of education in order to properly string up various different types of lines: electric lines, phone lines, etc, in a safe and organized manner. A single-family home is complicated enough. The average single-family home requires 3 or 4 different circuits.

Turn that single-family home into a 5-story apartment building. Suddenly, you need dozens, and dozens of circuits. In most apartment buildings, most individual apartments have at least 2 circuits each! And those are just the electricity lines! Never mind all the phone lines needed for each apartment. All internet lines. If you were to add 3 or 4 different ISPs, and all four ISPs were contracted to provide service to various different apartments throughout that building, each ISP with their own installation people coming in screwing around with wiring up their own wires through that building.....Seriously, you are asking for an absolute nightmare! One that is obnoxiously idiotic.

Then you have to add all those extra lines to the physical telephone poles outside. And all those lines have to be strung up for miles upon miles. And in the middle of winter, snow and ice piles up on those lines. You'll have different people, from different companies coming in, making repairs to their own lines. No thank you.
Sorry, but I'm not even going to read your whole post because you seem to think that the biggest challenge to seizing the property of a business is simply the challenge of finding the proper legal mechanism to do so. You really don't care what the business has at stake because you have determined that the assets of the business to be more valuable for the greater public than for those who created them.

Because of that, I cannot reason with you.
 
These days, subdivisions don't get built with poles - it's all buried conduit. If you wanted to have multiple last-mile connections, it would involve a digging up a lot of front yards and roads to increase capacity.

That's malarky. Modern subdivisions generally have conduits through which newer/different cabling can be pulled without digging up the streets.

And, even if it did involve digging up the streets, so what. It's a tough market and if you can't compete, do something else where you can compete.

What's next, are you going to argue that the NFL should accommodate weaker athletes because it's unfair for them that only the better athletes are successful?
 
Sorry, but I'm not even going to read your whole post because you seem to think that the biggest challenge to seizing the property of a business is simply the challenge of finding the proper legal mechanism to do so. You really don't care what the business has at stake because you have determined that the assets of the business to be more valuable for the greater public than for those who created them.

Because of that, I cannot reason with you.

I take that as:

"tl;dr. I will not respond."

I know what is at stake for the company. And you are right: I don't care. I only care about results. I only care about laws that have been on the books and have been used for over a hundred years, and the purpose behind those laws. You obviously do not support anti-trust laws. You obviously seem to support the unfettered right to operate a corporate monopoly, no matter how much it harms society.

Now, I shall wait and see if THAT provokes a response. :rolleyes:
 
It would be near impossible in many markets. One of the reasons municipalities strike deals with one provider is that it simplifies the construction process. These days, subdivisions don't get built with poles - it's all buried conduit. If you wanted to have multiple last-mile connections, it would involve a digging up a lot of front yards and roads to increase capacity. And in Canada, that's not a winter prospect for most markets.

The second reason is zoning. By design, single family residences and condo apartments are build with two copper pairs. Part of the reasoning was that municipalities wanted to enforce their zoning usage: if you want a 3rd pair (for the unregistered suite or home based business) you have to dig up the yard or get approval from the strata to drill through concrete walls and run wire outside the condo.


Having said that, it wouldn't be too much more confusing on the demarc side than it already is today... the drop leads to a demarc, the demarc has jumpers to the building's panel, the panel has the connections to the jacks and coax in the dwelling. When the unit switches providers, the new provider just rolls back the old provider's jumpers and clips on their own. It'd be spaghetti, but as long as everything's labelled it is doable.







That is the case in Canada at this point. In "competitive communities", there is no way to know whether the previous occupant's jacks are connected to the phone system, the cable company, or some other novel invention (ie: satellite to the roof). So all connections are field tech installed just in case. This inefficiency does increase costs, which obviously are passed onto the customer. Competition squeezes out new efficiencies, but creates new inefficiencies. End user pricingwise, they could cancel out, who knows.

Thank you, blutoski. I appreciate your responses. You seem quite knowledgeable on the subject.

However, what you say about newer subdivisions in more rural settings right outside of large cities (condos, developments, etc,) isn't true for the inner city. Or even for older towns and small cities.

None of the local towns around my hometown, really has very many brand new housing developments. There are definitely a few, and those few are set up the way in which you describe. But for the vast majority of the residential, commercial, and industrial zones, they mostly rely on overhead power poles.

I'll briefly describe my hometown, so you have a bit of a picture of what is going on here:

I am from a small city in northcentral PA. (Williamsport.) The city mostly comprises of old homes that are one to two centuries old. There is one section of town (called "Millionaire's Row,") that is full of beautiful 19th century victorian houses. Now, Williamsport is a college town. Those houses have been converted into apartments. Over the course of the 20th century, various different electricians would come in, install new wires, leave the old. Or just do a piss-poor job of rewiring. (Who know who all had their hands on some of these old lines.)

Most of these old structures have a terrible mess of wiring. It is monstrous to attempt to get even ONE ISP's stuff into a house. Nevermind, trying to get 3 or 4 more in there. Basically, you would have to tear down all of the walls, rip out all of the wires, and start over from scratch. And that is just one building. That is most decidedly not going to happen. It's much easier to just tear up a road in a newer development to add more lines if it is needed. Also an extremely costly inconvenience.

If need be, I could very easily furnish photos of the rats nests we are talking about in some of these places. It isn't an isolated incident either. It's like that in almost all of these older homes and businesses, unless a particular building has been thoroughly renovated in more recent years. And not just in my hometown. It's true throughout all of the older sections of towns and cities. And yes, it is anecdotal in nature, I know. I would put a lot of serious cash down on the idea that very few of these places have been completely rewired in the past 2 decades. Doing so does not come cheap.
 
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Sorry, but I'm not even going to read your whole post because you seem to think that the biggest challenge to seizing the property of a business is simply the challenge of finding the proper legal mechanism to do so. You really don't care what the business has at stake because you have determined that the assets of the business to be more valuable for the greater public than for those who created them.
Seizing property, duplication of infrastructure are both red herrings in the case of both network neutrality regulation and local-loop unbundling regulation. Neither is required for either of those. They are wheeled out by people that simply do not understand what one or both of these things are (and there is plenty of this lack of understanding), or that wish to obfuscate.

Monopoly power is a situation that leads to market failure. This is separate from considerations of fairness. Correction of market failures generally requires intervention in the market.

Net neutrality is an idea to regulate away one avenue of monopolistic market abuse which is rent-seeking by internet data carriers over-charging for degraded service. It may be successful in doing that, if implemented. But it does not dismantle monopolies, at all. And therefore the potential for market abuse / rent seeking does not go away it just re-focuses onto something else. At the same time NN restricts choice for both sides of the content market. Not terribly badly, but it does restrict it.

Un-bundling is intervention to create competition and therefore remove the monopolistic arrangements which give rise to market abuse in the first place. It may not always succeed in doing that but it has a decent record of success in several countries where it has been implemented. If firms do not have the power to set prices then neutral or non neutral internet is not a case of rent seeking it is just a case of choice, supply and demand. Most customers and most content makers probably go with neutrality. Not all of them.

Some countries have open-access local loops and net neutrality. Some have even legislated high speed net as a statutory right. My view is that only the first one is a desired action by government.
 
I take that as:

"tl;dr. I will not respond."

I know what is at stake for the company. And you are right: I don't care. I only care about results. I only care about laws that have been on the books and have been used for over a hundred years, and the purpose behind those laws. You obviously do not support anti-trust laws. You obviously seem to support the unfettered right to operate a corporate monopoly, no matter how much it harms society.

Now, I shall wait and see if THAT provokes a response. :rolleyes:

Now you are outright misrepresenting what I have been saying all along. I support competition and you claim that is supporting a monopoly. You are unreasonable.
 
Seizing property, duplication of infrastructure are both red herrings in the case of both network neutrality regulation and local-loop unbundling regulation. Neither is required for either of those. They are wheeled out by people that simply do not understand what one or both of these things are (and there is plenty of this lack of understanding), or that wish to obfuscate.
Tell that to those who are championing the seizure of corporate resources for the greater good of humanity.
 
Actually those who object to LLU (but support NN) tend to do so via an argument that the former requires asset seizure and that is the reason why America can't do it. However this is uninformed objection coming from cognitive bias and is contradicted by other countries having implemented LLU without any asset seizure.

This does not mean that asset seizure doesn't happen (in the US and elsewhere) or that it is never justified. But it is a red herring in this discussion.
 
Tell that to those who are championing the seizure of corporate resources for the greater good of humanity.

Right.. because in your libertarian eyes, the government is either controlling business or lets businesses do anything they want. A nice, false-dichotomy that only exists in libertarian world.
 
Tell that to those who are championing the seizure of corporate resources for the greater good of humanity.

We The People, through our representatives in government, have given internet companies the unpreventable right to the use of privately held land and exception to laws against monopolies. Given that, we can expect incredible accommodations in return. If that is too much trouble, we The People can revoke their right to easements and those infrastructure lines will revert to the ownership of the land that is travels through (or back to the government if so chosen).
 
Some advocates of NN say it is necessary because opening up lines to competition is a no-go area because of seizure of private assets (wrong), and other advocates of NN suggest that it could actually be implemented under threat of seizing private assets (also wrong).

Total red herring.
 
We The People, through our representatives in government, have given internet companies the unpreventable right to the use of privately held land and exception to laws against monopolies. Given that, we can expect incredible accommodations in return. If that is too much trouble, we The People can revoke their right to easements and those infrastructure lines will revert to the ownership of the land that is travels through (or back to the government if so chosen).

Each 'we', to the extent that they are even applicable, are all over the place, and there are likely tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of such 'we's that would have to act together. Good luck.

Furthermore, the revocation of easements would likely have legitimate legal challenges and bad consequences for others using the same easements. Plausibly to the extent that even if the revocation of easements was possible, it could be very unpopular and thus not enacted.
 
Some advocates of NN say it is necessary because opening up lines to competition is a no-go area because of seizure of private assets (wrong), and other advocates of NN suggest that it could actually be implemented under threat of seizing private assets (also wrong).

Total red herring.
Would carriers be required to share their lines or not?

Would they be required to structure their products and pricing to meet some public policy objective, or not?
 
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